Party 2/4: Bad Player or Bad Luck?

[mosch]

I hopped onto a Party 2/4 table this evening and had the pleasure of sitting with our very own Homer J. Simpson. I played 96 hands, and wound up down $99. My question for the class... was this bad play or just a run of bad cards?

Here are all the hands whereI voluntarily pot money into the pot, for your consideration:

Hand 1: 10 players, 2 off the button. A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

pre-flop: MP raises, I re-raise, MP calls, all else folded.

flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] MP checks, I bet, MP folds

Hand 2: 10 handed, 1 off the button K :diamond Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

pre-flop: MP poster calls, I call, SB calls, BB checks.

flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
checks to me, I bet, all fold.

Hand 3 : 10 handed, 3 off the button. A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

pre-flop: EP calls, I call, Button & SB call.

flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB and BB check, EP bets, I fold, Button and SB call.

Hand 4 9 handed, 3 off the button. Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Preflop: I raise, Button calls, all others fold.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] H [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I bet, Button calls.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet, Button calls.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet, Button raises, I call.

Button takes down the pot with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hand 5 10 handed, 5 off the button A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

pre-flop: I call, MP calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 :diamond
SB bets, all fold.

Hand 6 10 handed, in SB: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

pre-flop: EP calls, 2 MP calls, I call, BB checks.

flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, BB and EP check, MP bets, MP2 calls, I fold, BB and EP call.

Hand 7 10 handed, 3 off the button A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Pre-flop: EP calls, I call, Button calls, BB checks.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB and EP check, I bet, Button calls, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
EP checks, I bet, Button calls, EP raises, I call, Button calls.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
EP bets, I call, Button folds.

EP takes the pot with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

comment: I think I wasted 2BBs here. Did I waste more than that? Less than that?

Hand 8 9 handed, 4 off the button, J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pre-flop: EP raises, I call, MP calls, BB calls.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks, EP bets, I fold, MP raises, EP three-bets, MP folds.

Hand 9 9 players, in SB: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

pre-flop: EP calls, MP calls, MP2 raises, I call, EP calls, MP calls.

flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
All check.

turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check, EP and MP check. MP2 bets, I fold, EP calls, MP folds.

Hand 10 9 handed, 1 off the button K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Pre-flop: EP calls, I raise, BB calls, EP calls.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB and EP check, I bet, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
EP checks, I bet, EP folds.

Hand 11 10 handed, 5 off the button A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 EPs call. I call. BB checks.

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, EP1 bets, EP2 and I call, BB folds.

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
All check.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
EP1 bets, EP2 raises, I fold, EP1 calls.

EP2 takes down the pot with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hand 12 10 handed, UTG+1. A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pre-flop: I call, MP calls, SB raises, I call, MP calls.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets, I fold, MP calls.

comment: I did this for possible future value if it hit. Is this a good idea?

Hand 13 10 players, 3 off the button. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

pre-flop: 2 EPs call, I call, LP and Button call, SB calls, BB checks.

flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets, EP1 folds, EP2 calls, I fold, LP and Button call.

Hand 14 8 handed, in BB. A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
EP call, MP call, Button raises, I three-bet, EP and MP fold, Button calls.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet, Button calls.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, Button bets, I call

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check, button bets, I fold.

Hand 15 8 handed, 2 off the button. A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

pre-flop: EP poster checks, I call, LP calls, Button calls, BB checks.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets, all call.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
All check.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
checks to LP. LP bets and all fold.

Hand 16 8 handed, UTG+1 Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG calls, I call, LP calls, Button raises, BB & UTG call, I call. LP calls.

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG bets, I raise, LP raises, I call, LP folds, UTG three-bets, I call, Button calls.

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG bets, I call, Button folds.

River: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG bets, I fold.

Hand 17 9 handed, in SB Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

pre-flop: EP calls, MP calls, BB announces he has AA, I call, BB raises, EP calls, MP calls, I call.

flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, BB bets, EP folds, MP raises, I fold, BB calls.

Hand 18 9 handed, UTG K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

pre-flop: I call, MP raises, SB calls, I call.

flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, I fold, MP raises, SB calls.

comment: Calling this raise was a second hand where the call was intended to provide advertising on the off-chance that the flop hit it. Is this effective/worthwhile?



Thanks for any honest feedback that y'all might have.

[kelvin474]

comments on a few of your hands:
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] handed, 4 off the button, J J

Pre-flop: EP raises, I call, MP calls, BB calls.


[/ QUOTE ] I think its generaly thought that you need to be reraising or folding when no one but the raiser has put in money. With a hand like JJ, I say re-raise that sucker. Now you've got 3 opponents, which is the difficult range, according to HPFAP- what do you do when overcards flop? but you don't have odds to play it for a set. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Can EP bet lower pocket pairs like TT or 99, and raise preflop with em? otherwise, he'd have to have exactly AK for you to be ahead of him, in which case you can go ahead and fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 9 9 players, in SB: 9 8
pre-flop: EP calls, MP calls, MP2 raises, I call, EP calls, MP calls.


[/ QUOTE ] This is a real loose call. your position, sucks. your hand, wants more multiway than that, esp. if you have to play it out of pos. and for 2 bets. Fold it.

In hand 11, why not raise with AK?
Hand 12, forget the advertising. they aren't watching at
2-4. Although I would limp if the game texture was right, for THIS hand. didn't really get the multiple limps or all-folds u wanted tho.


Re: hand 14. If you're going to fold when a really useless river card hits, then you must have figured you were behind on the turn. In that case, I don't think you can call the turn bet getting 6:1. You've got probably 7 outs, since the button very likely has an ace or a king; if he doesn't, he has something that makes your ace and king outs worhtless.

I think you fold on the turn, or else you have to call on the river.

Hand 15: raise it up one time, no one has put money in voluntarily yet! why just limp?

Hand 17: preflop: Raise it up, big man, raise it up! you have the 3rd best hand in the game!

Hand 18: you played 96 hands, but you were advertising for the future on the 18th one you voluntarily put $ in on? whatever for? I dont know about your play exactly, I would limp for this hand, call the raise and reeeaaaly hope for 2-pair or an open-end straight draw. unless he's vintage LL party player, in which case i'd take a pair...

[mosch]

Thanks for your post, I'm going to take some time to think about your input, but I wanted to make a few initial comments.

Hand 11: I nearly always pre-flop raise with AK, I decided not to in order to take the advice from HEFAP that one should occasionally not raise very strong hands. I pre-flop raise it 93% according to pokertracker.

Hand 15: I really wasn't sure about raising it up with AQo, it's a strong hand but I have a strong tendancy to get into trouble with it. I've received it, while being tracked, exactly 50 times, and I've lost $70.48 with it. Perhaps my adjustments to stop my AQo leak actually ARE a leak?

Hand 17: I decided that it was extremely likely that the BB really did have Aces, leaving me drawing to two outs.

Hand 18: When I started the hand, I thought I'd be playing at that table for another couple hundred hands.

Again, thanks for the input, especially the idea that advertising doesn't pay in 2/4. You've given me a lot to think about.

[Ed Miller]

You play way too passively. This is not winning poker. You need to be raising your JJ, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ, and AJ hands in almost all of the situations they come up.

Calling this raise was a second hand where the call was intended to provide advertising on the off-chance that the flop hit it. Is this effective/worthwhile?

1) Don't advertise, especially in 2-4 games online. Who do you think is paying attention, exactly?
2) You don't "advertise" by calling, anyway, you do so by raising (which you need to do a lot more of anyway).
3) No one is going to blink an eye when they see that you called with A8s and KQo. Your opponents are people who would never under any circumstances fold those hands without seeing a flop. Do you think they are gonna notice that you limped in out of position? Do you think they are gonna care even if they did notice?
4) What exactly is your "advertisement" supposed to be accomplishing, anyway. Are you advertising your new kosher soul food restaurant? Because if you are, I think you are wasting your money, because you are going to have to hold your customers off with a stick even if you don't advertise.

In other words... huh?

I'm too tired tonight to go hand by hand... maybe I'll get around to that tomorrow... you made a bunch of mistakes, though.

[Ed Miller]

Don't advise him to fold JJ for one raise in a Party 2-4 game. I know you didn't truly suggest that he do that, but you intimated that it might be a reasonable play. It's not, so don't lead him astray. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] The JJ hand was a clear 3-bet... there is no other acceptable way to play there.

[Homer]

My comments are below. Most of them are "raise preflop", which is rather boring. However, I think you need to examine your preflop play as you are aren't raising as you should be with big unsuited cards like AQo and AKo and are coldcalling with big (but not monster) pairs like JJ and QQ.

As for your poll, I don't think you are a bad player. It's obvious you are trying to play well, which puts you ahead of 90% of the players on Party Poker. Once you become more decisive in your preflop actions (i.e. - Fold 98s when it's two bets to you and Three-bet JJ when it's two bets to you) and stop coldcalling, and stop laying down so often on the flop when a single overcard hits the board, you'll be fine. You'll find that you have a lot more opportunities to take down the pot on the flop without needing to have a hand (when AK and AQ miss, you can often take the pot anyway) and when you do hit the flop you'll be winning larger pots.

Hand 2 - Raise preflop.

Hand 3 - Usually raise preflop.

Hand 4 - I'm assuming H is actually 9?

Hand 5 - Raise preflop.

Hand 7 - Raise preflop. I usually call this down against an unknown, though I admit that the turn checkraise against two opponents makes it likely that your opponent has trips.

Hand 8 - Three-bet preflop. Given the way you played preflop, raise the flop. You are still ahead of a lot of hands that EP could have.

** Note - I was MP in this hand, with TT.

Hand 9 - Fold preflop.

Hand 11 - Raise preflop. Fold on the flop. Don't chase overcards in small pots on coordinated boards (unless they coordinate with your overcards, that is).

Hand 12 - I'm not sure what you mean when you say you played this hand for future value. Are you referring to advertising? If so, no it isn't worth it, as no one is paying attention. You should be playing this hand anyway, however.

Hand 14 - Fire again on the turn. Your opponent's action of raise the flop, call a three-bet and call a flop bet makes it likely that he has overcards to the flop. If you check your opponent will practically auto-bet heads-up, and you will call, so you might as well bet it yourself and hope that your opponent lays down his overcards. Given the way you played it, I would call the river bet.

Hand 15 - Raise preflop.

Hand 16 - As I said at the table, I'm not sure that I could make this laydown. Many players on Party will go nuts like this with JT, J9, Q8. Hell, some would do it with any Jack.

Hand 17 - Well, I did have AA. However, you should ignore me and raise preflop. After I three-bet you can decide if I'm screwing with you or really have AA (either way you're seeing the flop, obviously). On the flop, you should bet out.

** Note - That 5 on the turn really sucked!

Hand 18 - I'm not sure why you're referring to advertising again. You should always play KQo in an unraised pot, then if it's raised you suck it up and call one more and see the flop. This isn't advertising -- it's a standard play.

-- Homer

[Ed Miller]

[TazQ]

I just skimmed over some of the hands, but you aren't raising nearly enough preflop.

Hands 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 15, 17, you need to be raising with preflop.

There are also some suited connectors type hands where you're calling when you can't expect to be getting the correct odds.

Anyways, it looks like you need to be more aggressive, especially preflop.