40-80 Hand

[Clarkmeister]

I thought this was interesting. I'll let you all decide.

New player who has let on that he plays in L.A. open raises in EP. He doesn't seem very good. One decent player coldcalls in MP. Strong Pro who respects my bets and raises 3-bets from the Button, I put him definitively on JJ-AA. Maybe too narrow, but until proven otherwise, that was my read at the table, at that moment. SB folds, I see EP getting ready to just call, so I call 2 more bets with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . EP and MP call. 4 to the flop for 12.5sbs.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I don't want to red-flag the button yet, so I just check. EP bets, MP folds, Button raises, I coldcall, EP calls. 3 to the turn for 9.25BBs.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I check, EP bets, Button raises, I coldcall, EP calls. 3 to the river for 15.25BBs.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet.

[SinCityGuy]

The button has a big pair, and you only need to be concerned with QQ, so he's probably beaten.

The EP's play is a bit tougher to figure. Is he the type that would semi-bluff something like AhTh on the flop, then bet out again on the turn when he hit TP/TK?

[worm33]

wow weird. First off good job not folding three's. I like to lead at the flop, as it shows weakness and there are 2 players to act between you and all the power. I would lead at the flop and 3 bet when the button raises, the bad player isnt folding anything like ak or a queen or a pocket pair or a flush draw. Usualy in this situation you can get 3-5 bets in on the flop 3-4 ways. Nothin fancy just gettin all the money in. The way you played it though you got at least 7 bb's. Nice hand way to flop a set

[astroglide]

i'll lead this flop almost every time expecting to get raised, and at that point i decide whether or not i can pull off a bet/3bet on the turn. if i can't, i'll just reraise right there.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll lead this flop almost every time expecting to get raised, and at that point i decide whether or not i can pull off a bet/3bet on the turn. if i can't, i'll just reraise right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll address this because I know most will recommend the lead-then-3-bet line. I would against a different opponent. I thought the situation demanded a change in strategy.

[andyfox]

I'd have folded pre-flop. I don't want to play 3-3 ahead of what is most likely two other bigger pocket pairs behind me. But I hate small pocket pairs up front.

Did you think by betting/3 betting the flop you'd definitely tip the guy off? He wouldn't think you might think he just has A-K and/or you'd think he too noticed the original raiser isn't too good? There isn't much he could put you on if you take any initiative except a set, I guess. By just calling the flop raise, he probably put you on a pocket overpair smaller than his, or perhaps Ah-Qh or somesuch [depending on what heart he might have]. How does this deception compare with the value of punishing the third player?

On the river, I don't think either opponent has a flush. If your analysis of both is correct, it's unlikely the L.A. guy would have bet the turn again on a flush draw [although I suppose it's possible he might have Th-9h, or Ah-Th]. And the Vegas pro has, if you're correct, a pocket pair; the flush might cause him to check it down, so I like your bet.

What do you do if the L.A. player raises and the Vegas pro calls?

[Gabe]

One wouldn't usually think it was a good idea to call two bets here with a small pair with three to four players max and the possibility of a 5-bet coming, but you seem to have milked everything out of it and you did say you thought EP would just call. Not crazy about it, though., but if you could count on a pot this size....

You played it well to keep the EP in and waiting to the river to initiate any action. Up until then checkraising may lose the EP and betting out my cause them to be cautious.

Other than the debatable preflop call, I can't see a problem, but maybe I'm missing something.

Who was the LA guy. I played in the 40/80 there with some people I knew and haven't seen them back here yet.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Clarkmeister,

Hope you had a happy Easter. I'm out of practice so I'll comment without peeking and hope I make sense.

Before the flop I think this is an easy call given you are reasonably certain that it is going to cost you only two more bets and you are getting over five to one. Of course you are moostly playing "flop a set poker" at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I don't want to red-flag the button yet, so I just check. EP bets, MP folds, Button raises, I coldcall, EP calls. 3 to the turn for 9.25BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO your cold-call is about as big a red flag than just plain betting out. By betting you aren't giving away your hand given your opponent probably thinks you bet many draws and a wide variety of made hands here. Meanwhile, you often trap opponents caught between your set and a probable overpair for multiple bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I check, EP bets, Button raises, I coldcall, EP calls. 3 to the river for 15.25BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your play so far, cold calling makes some sense. There is a good chance EP re-raises, and if he does you usually like it. Of course, the real beauty is that by cold calling you look like your playing a flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good bet. You look like you made a flush but if it turns out you are behind to a bigger set you probably won't get raised at the same time you will get called because of pot size with many worse hands that probably check it down if you check.

Regards,

Rick

[chesspain]

Why not make it three bets on the turn rather than simply coldcalling? I doubt that the button is going to fold here for one more bet, and I assume he will still call one more on the river. In addition, since there is no guarantee that EP will put in any money on the river if the wrong card falls, why not see if he'll pay two now.

However, I think that the best part about raising is that by forcing EP to call two more, you've cut his odds down to approx. 8:1, which might cause him to fold a hand like 88 or 99, with which he just barely would have the odds to call and draw out on you.

[andyfox]

"this is an easy call given you are reasonably certain that it is going to cost you only two more bets and you are getting over five to one."

Shouldn't the "only" have been in quotation marks? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] He's also reasonably certain that the 3-bettor has a bigger pocket pair. And doesn't a solid cold-caller, in Vegas, usually mean a medium-high pocket pair? I know a pre-flop discussion isn't worth too much, but I always throw away my small pocket pairs from the blinds against 3-bettors, especially when I'm as sure as Clarkmeister was that the 3-bettor didn't have A-K. Maybe some of this is playing in L.A., where it's more certain that there's going to be more action on the flop. But, then again, maybe that's a reason for playing the pairs instead of folding them.