($55) Reality check... obvious fold?

[Femto]

No reads.

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 1 - 10 players (Converter: PGC)

BB is 20/0/- (5)
UTG+1 is 20/0/- (5)
MP2 is 40/0/1.0 (5)

Chip Counts:
Button: 585 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 970 Chips</font>
BB: 985 Chips
UTG: 1010 Chips
UTG+1: 985 Chips
MP1: 1000 Chips
MP2: 1290 Chips
MP3: 975 Chips
LP1: 1675 Chips
CO: 525 Chips

Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Blinds are 10/15

PreFlop
<font color="blue">UTG folds</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 Calls</font>, <font color="blue">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="green">MP2 Calls</font>, <font color="blue">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="blue">LP1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">CO folds</font>, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
<font color="green">Hero Calls</font>, <font color="green">BB checks</font>

(4 players) FLOP: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 60 Chips )
<font color="red">Hero BETS ($60)</font>, <font color="blue">BB folds</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 Calls</font>, <font color="blue">MP2 folds</font>

(2 players) TURN: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 180 Chips )
<font color="red">Hero BETS ($125)</font>, <font color="green">UTG+1 Calls</font>

(2 players) RIVER: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 430 Chips )
<font color="red">Hero BETS ($125)</font>, UTG+1 is All-In
Hero...

[RiverDood]

I'm just a small-stakes player trying to learn from the way people play hands at higher levels, but this would be a pretty automatic preflop fold for me. Bad position and a hand that can't really play back against a raise even if the flop hits me. I've got kicker trouble; I'm vulnerable to overcards, etc., etc.

Just last night I figured out a way to lose 300 chips early calling Q8o from the SB and trying to take down the pot with J8x on the board. The lesson to me: Even when it works, Q8o in early position in a multiway pot is a hand that doesn't work.

On your hand, anyone consider checking the river? Weirdly to me, that projects more strength than your probe bet. I think that gives you a slightly better chance of a cheap showdown, or else getting away from the hand with less pain.

[tigerite]

A preflop fold for 5 chips!? Come on. That's just silly.

Flop play however is bad.. you should go for a check/raise if you really want to play this hand strong, or more likely. check/call and even sometimes check/fold. Your hand is impossible to protect here, you can't be sure you're ahead, and the reverse implied odds are horrendous. Yep, I think I'd actually check/fold this flop.

[pineapple888]

Not obvious at all to me, kind of a tough spot actually, when you don't have a read.

I guess I reluctantly let it go.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Not obvious at all to me, kind of a tough spot actually, when you don't have a read.

I guess I reluctantly let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding the rest of the line, I play it the same on flop and turn, trying to take it down each time. But I don't really like the smallish river bet. I'd check it there.

[tigerite]

I really don't see what good it is betting out on the flop, you have top pair Q kicker, but the pair is 8's, there is literally no card in the deck you're going to like seeing on the turn, and absolutely no way of finding out where you stand without committing a lot of chips to the pot. Plus, there's the flush AND straight draw out there. Even if you are ahead here it won't be by much at all.. it's too thin for me to get involved when I saw the flop for only 5 chips anyways.

[pineapple888]

The initial investment is irrelevant, but the rest of your points are valid. I didn't realize there were three others involved in the pot on the flop. Check/fold might be better after all.

[RiverDood]

[ QUOTE ]
A preflop fold for 5 chips!? Come on. That's just silly.

Flop play however is bad.. you should go for a check/raise if you really want to play this hand strong, or more likely. check/call and even sometimes check/fold. Your hand is impossible to protect here, you can't be sure you're ahead, and the reverse implied odds are horrendous. Yep, I think I'd actually check/fold this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grim analysis, and the more I digest it, the more it makes perfect sense. So if this is a bad flop for us, what's a good flop -- aside from cosmic longshots like QQ8 or 9TJ?

Almost anything else is either an obvious fold or backs us into exactly the dilemma you describe. That was what made me suggest not playing it. The chips involved on the call are inconsequential. But often they're a prelude to being stuck in a snarky hand that we didn't need to play.

[tigerite]

Well, I do understand where you are coming from, but I think you do have to call for the 5 chips when it's really such a small investment and so many are in the pot. I mean, you only get one chance to see a flop from the SB cheap per SNG, at most (often times it's raised), so I think it's okay. As for what flop, well that's where post flop play comes into it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but I'd definitely want a friendlier flop than this one..