KK against stuited flop...did i play it right?

#1 12-08-2005, 07:17 PM

ok so heres the hand without the results, and below it are my reasons behind each move on each street

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Preflop: no brain raise

Flop: not too bad considering its short-handed (for loose game)..i raised the bet hoping he had an ace with no club in his hand, and by raising i could hopefully get weaker clubs to fold

TURN: scary card, now that i think about it MP2 was a kind of weak player so i dont know why i was so afraid of a check raise at the time..but at the same time i didnt want to waste any more bets just in case

RIVER: blank, but i figured he would only call if i was beat so i checked behind him

so what do you think?

RiverDood · #2 12-08-2005, 07:36 PM

flop -- nice raise. yes, you want the Ad4c or the 7h7c to fold here. well done.

turn/river -- i'd look for a way to get one bet in here. At these limits, people seem to fold the turn if they feel they're beat, but they will call river bets when behind just to find out what you've got.

so i'd bet the river, assuming that anything short of the Qc won't raise you. if he's got an A/no club, he'll likely call on the hope that you've got about the same and he'll win or tie. ditto for anyone playing K8 or 88, which is not likely, but still would pay you off if it's out there. Overall, I think you'll get called often enough to justify the bet.

on the turn, you've still got 10 outs to a full house, even if he has a decent flush. so at higher limits, i'd bet the turn. but at nano-limits, your best hope of a call from a weaker hand is probably at the river

#3 12-08-2005, 07:40 PM

Hmm, he's been pretty passive. I've bet out at scary flops like this with trips and been creamed by passives who had a little flush but were afraid to bet into my bet/raise.

But, the turn is a club. You've got 10 outs to either quads or a full house laying you 3.5:1 odds, pot is 7.75BB so I'm half inclined to continue to be aggressive and bet on the turn and c/b/f the river depending on what comes.

ajm36 · #4 12-08-2005, 08:02 PM

Bet the turn!!! If vil is passive and raises, you probably can call and fold the river UI. If he calls the turn, I'm betting the river.

tyler_cracker · #5 12-08-2005, 08:14 PM

Compare and contrast:

Bet the turn: maybe Villain will fold a small club. If not, you can almost certainly take a free showdown. Plus, he may not have a club, in which case your bet is for value.

If he does check/raise you, you still have 10 outs to boat+, and if you hit you will extract 2 more bets on the river. If you miss, you have to check/fold the river UI, but if Villain is indeed weak, you never have the best hand anyway.

Check the turn: if Villain doesn't have much of anything, maybe you induce a bet on the river, which you can call UI or raise if you fill up.

On the whole, i have convinced myself that betting the turn is better.

Jaran · #6 12-08-2005, 08:15 PM

I like a turn bet.

-Jaran

Shillx · #7 12-08-2005, 08:31 PM

You can generate all kinds of ideas about why we should or should not bet, but all of the replies have totally missed the mark here. There is just one consideration:

Bet if the pot is pretty big and check if it isn't.

If he has a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], we want him to fold if the pot is pretty big. Likewise we don't really mind if the pot is small. He is not going to fold a flush often enough to effect our decision to bet, so don't even make the assumption that he will. If the pot were 20 BB, we would benefit greatly (+ 2 BB) from him folding a hand that has 10 outs to a chop. If the pot is 4 BB, we only gain .4 BB when he folds a hand that is drawing to a chop, so betting isn't as critical.

Everytime he check/raises, it costs us about .7 BB. By checking, we give up ~.775 BB if he wasn't planning on calling and we give up ~.8 BB if he was planning on calling. So in this case, he has to check/raise about as often as he has a worse hand. I think he will have a worse hand more often the 50% of the time so I like a bet. As the pot gets bigger, he has to have a hand that will c/r more and more, and that is why betting becomes so critical as the pot gets big.

McGahee · #8 12-09-2005, 09:41 AM

Sometimes I'll call and raise any non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn, but your flop & turn play are fine too. I'd find a bet on the river though.

imported_The Vibesman · #9 12-09-2005, 10:52 AM

Great post Shillx. I had to read it three times to fully understand what you were getting at.

I wanted to bet the turn anyway, but now I know why.