Firing the second barrel - a discussion

MarkD · #1 08-04-2004, 09:45 PM

A couple of nights ago I was playing and I something clicked. I didn’t know how to correctly play a very specific, often repeated, betting sequence. I think this play comes up a lot and I saw it at least three times during my session. I’ve probably seen it many hundreds of times before and I imagine I made some almost random play without really thinking about it. Since this betting sequence comes up so often I think it is probably worth a fair amount to get it straightened out, or to at least discuss it and hopefully clarify a few things to myself. With that in mind I would like to say that I am posting the following examples because they illustrate the general concept that I want to get figured out. We can discuss the individual hands but I am really just supplying them as examples to start a discussion more so than to actually analyze the hands themselves.

So, the general concept I want to discuss is when you are head’s up with position and are the pre-flop raiser without a pocket pair. You then bet the flop after your opponent checks to you and your opponent calls you. He checks to your again on the turn and you have still not made a pair – when do we fire the second barrel? And, if we get check raised how do we respond?

I think what needs to be figured out and discussed is the texture of the board and how that should influence our desire to fire again. I could be wrong. Also, it’s possible I’m the only one who cares about this topic or thinks it is important but oh well.

For the purposes of discussion let’s define our opponent as “typical” meaning that he is slightly too loose, slightly too aggressive, and goes slightly too far with his hands. He is not a maniac or a particularly terrible player, but this is how I view the typical player that is unknown to me.

Hand 1:
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $15.
4 folds, Hero (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls,

Flop:8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn:J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?

Hand 2:
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop:4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Turn:J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero ?

Hand 3:
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop:7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn:9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero ?

PS. I would also like to discuss the situation when we are out of position as I think it is different and worth discussing seperately. I will post about it when I find a few good examples.

sthief09 · #2 08-04-2004, 10:02 PM

this is going to be a goooooood thread.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. you get check-raised so often in these situations that sometimes it's best to give your opponent a free card, and call the inevitable river bet.

(This is just stream of conscience writing. this all could be very wrong, but I'm going to spit out my thoughts) I think a lot of it has to do with whether you think your hand is best unimproved. basically, can I call a river bet if I get check-raised? I think this is important because so often you're being check-raised by a worse hand. For example, in hand 1, I might not bet because (1) some of his "outs" make you a flush, and (2) because if you get check-raised you'll throw your hand away, costing you 2 bets overall. I'd rather check the turn, and raise the river, gaining 2 bets if I hit, and maybe calling a river bet, depending on the card, costing you only 1 bet. Also, with all those low cards and a BB defender, I feel a check-raise coming most of the time.

Hand 2- I bet because any A beats you, and if you check the turn, you're not getting him to fold the river. I think you'd get check-raised on the flop if he had a pair. since he called, I think there's a chance he'll fold. this goes against my logic in the last hand because I wouldn't call a river bet if I got check-raised. I think getting an A to fold is of primary concern here. If you get check-raised, you'll be beat most of the time (unless he picked up a heart draw, or has a spade draw).

Hand 3- this is tough. he didn't call the flop with overcards. he could've called with an overcard. he could've called with a crappy draw. he could've called with the intention of check-raising. he could've called with a 9. I'd bet and call down if check-raised here. there's a lot of draws on the board, and I'd like to win it here, and I think he'll be full of it enough to call a check-raise.

MarkD · #3 08-04-2004, 11:36 PM

with all those low cards and a BB defender, I feel a check-raise coming most of the time.

I think this is important.

So between hand 1 and hand 2 it apears that you are more afraid of a check raise in the first hand because of the very low board and this sways you from betting to checking (since hand 1 and hand 2 are similar in terms of number of outs).

It also appears that you think we need to fold the river unimproved in both these hands if we get check raised. I think this is probably correct.

In hand 3 there is almost no river card we can be comfortable with if our opponent bets into us after we check through on the turn. Combined with the number of draws on board and I think this throws the decision to check/bet towards betting but also think we are in a very bad spot here once check raised. We have to be good a little over 25% of the time which seems like a lot if we get check raised. (This doesn't include the times where we are ahead on the turn but he draws out on us on the river, so I would increase this percentage to over 30%). I think if we get check raised in hand 3 we have to fold, but I hate it. Actually, it's probably correct for us to call the turn and fold the river since we would be getting around 7-1 on the turn.

Maybe there is a general maxim for these situations such as: It is incorrect to call on the river unimproved after calling a check raise on the turn. (I'm certainly not convinced of this but think it's highly probable even though we would be getting 9-1.)

sthief09 · #4 08-05-2004, 12:07 AM

It is incorrect to call on the river unimproved after calling a check raise on the turn.

I don't understand why you believe this is true. I routinely call down check-raises in spots where I think it's likely my opponent had a draw and missed, and often I'll win the pot. the semi-bluff check-raise is the most overused play in the games I play in. this may be different at 15/30 though. Now, I can guarantee that I've lost money by calling down too much after being check-raised, but since I call routinely, I notice that they often have nothing. there's got to be some way to figure out when it's right to call or not.

I'm going to go through my db and post some hand examples.

[cue] I wonder where StellarWind is. [/cue]

sthief09 · #5 08-05-2004, 12:19 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 7 folds, BB calls,

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB
Main Pot: 9.16 BB, between BB and Hero. > Pot won by BB (9.16 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 4c Qc (two pair, queens and fours).
Hero shows Ac Kd (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 9.16 BB. 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB
Main Pot: 8.25 BB, between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB (8.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 2d As (two pair, eights and twos).
Hero shows Kh Ad (one pair, eights).
Outcome: BB wins 8.25 BB. 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, between Button and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (11 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ah Kc (one pair, threes).
Button shows 4h Ad (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB. 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB calls,

Flop: (7.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.66 BB
Main Pot: 9.66 BB, between Hero and MP1. > Pot won by MP1 (9.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qs Ad (high card, ace).
MP1 shows Ah 3c (straight, six high).
Outcome: MP1 wins 9.66 BB.

MarkD · #6 08-05-2004, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you believe this is true

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't, I thought it was a possibility. But, since I agree with the rest of your post completely it is obviously not a possibility and the trick is finding the balance.

The check/raise semi-bluff is the most over-used play online at all limits including 15/30 where it is quite common. Do you call it down with King high or wait util you have Ace high?

sthief09 · #7 08-05-2004, 12:46 AM

I only call down with K-high when I feel strongly that the player has nothing. I still lose a lot of the time to A-high, which is why I wait until I'm really sure. I think calling with K-high is generally a losing proposition, because a good amount of hands that your opponent semi-bluffs with include an A

pokerkai · #8 08-04-2004, 10:45 PM

“typical” meaning that he is slightly too loose, slightly too aggressive, and goes slightly too far with his hands

And this sort of behaviour is what we are trying to avoid ourselves by examining this line of betting yes? Are we taking the hand too far or being too agressive by firing the second barrel?

My one question before i jump into the hands is...if this is an overly agressive player, why is he checking too me? Should I be feeling uneasy because of this passivity?

Maybe Im too agressive, but without any real read, my default play is to bet out in all 3 situations. There are just too many intrinsic benefits associated with betting out that it makes sense to bet given the passivity of the villain and your powerful outs.

MarkD · #9 08-04-2004, 11:15 PM

There are just too many intrinsic benefits associated with betting out that it makes sense to bet given the passivity of the villain and your powerful outs.

What are they? Part of the reason I posted was to bring these benefits out in the open to be discussed and weighed.

My one question before i jump into the hands is...if this is an overly agressive player, why is he checking too me?

In general my typical player is slightly too agressive with his hands. When these players have no hand they can be quite passive, or randomly reckless. Of course, your question is exactly why these situations are not easy to play.

Franchise (TTT) · #10 08-04-2004, 10:59 PM

My typical playstyle would be to:

Bet hands 1 and 2. Plenty of non-pair hands he could have from the flop that he'd drop, and you've got tons of outs.

Check hand 3. You've got the only two overcards, and the middle card just paired.