I'm about to go to Chipotle

billyjex · #1 09-20-2005, 03:44 PM

and I will stew over this hand while there. Underplayed? Overplayed? Depends on the street?

SB is a typical too loose not aggressive enough 5/10er. CO is completely unknown.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

River: (10.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

bds · #2 09-20-2005, 04:10 PM

I think you played it perfectly.

ErrantNight · #3 09-20-2005, 04:19 PM

i like it.

BabyJesus · #4 09-20-2005, 04:28 PM

Personally I don't 3 bet the river, you already represented a big hand by c/r the turn. When he pops you on the river he's trying to show you he can beat whatever strength you've shown. Could be QT but then again he could just be an idiot like you usually run into at 5/10.

I think it's close though cause only thing you're really concerned with is exactly QT, he could also have Kx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Now that I think it over more 3 betting looks just fine given the texture of this board.

aflaba · #5 09-20-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Could be QT but then again he could just be an idiot like you usually run into at 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

QT normally wouldn't 3-bet the flop. I think Villains most probable hand is KJ.

casinogosain · #6 09-20-2005, 04:39 PM

I think capping the flop gets you another bet on the river.

-Ash

BabyJesus · #7 09-20-2005, 04:47 PM

I would 3 bet the flop there, then most likely take a free card on the turn if given the opportunity. Is that wrong?

KJ does sound about right.

Magikist · #8 09-20-2005, 05:07 PM

The tenor of your post makes it sound like you lost to QT or KK, but don't be results oriented. There's a large range of worse hands that CO could raise the river with: AK, KQ, KJ, KT, K9, Kxc, to name the most likely. Barring extraordinary circumstances, not 3-betting the river is a mistake.

What intrigues me about this hand is not the river, though. I think simply calling SB's lead out on the flop is a very viable alternative to raising. In the heat of multi-tabling, I would probably raise the flop, too. But after some consideration, I think this is one of those less obvious situations in today's 6-max game where a touch of subtlety will go a long way.

CO is raising here with a large range of hands. If he's aggressive enough, you can reasonably expect him to raise the flop fairly often, allowing you to 3-bet or 4-bet. If he's good enough, he will fold hand you don't necessarily want him to fold. By smooth-calling the first bet, you're not putting so much pressure on SB, either, whose lead out often means that he really just wants to fold.

Generally, this is one of the better money-making spots in 6-max poker. You stand to rake a huge pot by letting your opponents "hit" their hand. With 11 crushing outs (9 clubs and 2 aces), you can expect this scenario to play out often enough.

Yes, raising the flop will increase your odds of winning the pot. With vulnerable hands of value in multiway pots, this concern is of tantamount importance. However, here you are presented with a hand with a ton of equity in an awkward position. The appropriate strategy may need to change to: either build a big one right off the bat, or go for trapping your opponents so they pay off on bigger streets.

As in all things, the more risk the larger the reward. This spot is the genuine article that justifies the increased risk. Calling the flop here has significantly higher value than immediately raising.

aflaba · #9 09-20-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would 3 bet the flop there, then most likely take a free card on the turn if given the opportunity. Is that wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a free card cap is the best play with them two flop aggressors. I'm not sure though.

Anyway, if a player was to take a free card play I don't think he would bet the turn often. I think QT is possible but unlikly.

Magikist · #10 09-20-2005, 05:23 PM

I see this mistake all the time in the 6-max these days.

When an otherwise standard player caps this flop heads up, the line just SCREAMS big draw. A savvy player will recognize this, and adjust accordingly.

He will call you down with any J, 9 or pocket pair higher than 5. He will fold when a King or club comes, unless this card improves his hand. He will fold the turn if he truly has nothing. You may as well turn your cards face up.

Once it's heads up (assuming you are behind at the time), your cap is actually -EV, albeit small. Your rationale for the aggression is getting a better hand to fold. However, as I just explained, a savvy player will actually be less likely to fold a better hand.

The only time you actually get paid off is when your opponent has a big hand, too, and you improve. In those hands when you DON'T improve, you've cost yourself at least an extra couple of bets. In those hands when your oppoenent isn't huge, he will either fold with nothing or call you down when you're behind. This is bad. Do you see why?

Generally, playing draws super-aggressively when heads up, and especially out-of-position, is a common leak if you're facing any kind of reasonable competition (the 10-20 game and higher).

Qualification: if you are a genuine LAG, obviously these arguments do not apply.