Those Pesky Fishhooks...

[NoBrains]

I’m always second guessing myself when it comes to playing JJ OOP. I’m thinking that my PF re-raise was a little to small, but didn’t want to push the pot up to high. Any thoughts are appreciated.


Early, no read on UTG+2, MP1 showed a solid hand, BB is playing loose.

11’s … Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

MP1 (t975)
Hero (t800)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t770)
Button (t1045)
SB (t570)
BB (t640)
UTG (t860)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t755)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t30</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls t75, UTG+2 calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t370) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

ok, I land a nice set on this flop, but it’s all clubs. I think I have two choices, whimp out and call this down, or try and take it here…

<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t15</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t710 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t535 (All-In), UTG+2 folds.

[the_joker]

Seems ok to me.

[gildwulf]

I would probably just call preflop and reraise/push on the flop. Looks good though.

Z

p.s. there is NO way you are laying this down on the flop at the 10+1s.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m thinking that my PF re-raise was a little to small

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was. I shove at least 150 out there. You could argue for a limp, I suppose, but a small raise is the worst of all.

[ QUOTE ]
but didn’t want to push the pot up too high

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, I've been seeing this idea pop up recently, and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

1.) You WANT the pot high. You have the fourth-best starting hand!

2.) The other reason to raise it up is to knock out drawing hands. Your Jacks get progressively more vulnerable as more people join the pot. Ideally, you want to get heads-up whenever you have pocket queens, jacks, or tens.

With a substantial raise, you will accomplish one or both of these goals. With a wimpy raise, you won't accomplish either.
[ QUOTE ]
ok, I land a nice set on this flop, but it’s all clubs. I think I have two choices, whimp out and call this down, or try and take it here…

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to try to take it down. You don't want to let anyone with one club draw, and if somebody flopped a flush, you still have many outs to a full house or quads:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1035148
pokenum -h jd js - ac tc -- jc 9c 3c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Jc 9c 3c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jd 341 34.44 649 65.56 0 0.00 0.344
Ac Tc 649 65.56 341 34.44 0 0.00 0.656

Hope this helps.

[NoBrains]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]


but didn’t want to push the pot up too high


[/ QUOTE ]


For some reason, I've been seeing this idea pop up recently, and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

1.) You WANT the pot high. You have the fourth-best starting hand!

2.) The other reason to raise it up is to knock out drawing hands. Your Jacks get progressively more vulnerable as more people join the pot. Ideally, you want to get heads-up whenever you have pocket queens, jacks, or tens.

With a substantial raise, you will accomplish one or both of these goals. With a wimpy raise, you won't accomplish either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree with this line of thinking. What I was after was; “how to minimize the number of folks in the pot, yet not over-commit chips with many yet to act behind me.”

What I often see is if the raise is too large, it seems to entice folks to go all-in. At this stage I don’t want anyone going all-in because I won’t know what it means (QQ-AA, AQ+, any 2 pushing for chips).

But I agree that t125-t175 would have been a better amount.

[kyro]

I call PF. No need to get too frisky with a very vulnerable hand.

Flop is an easy push. In the rare event someone has a flush, you've got enough redraws to make the push profitable.

[NoBrains]

Yes, those JJ, look great in your hand until the A,K,Q shows up on the flop. LOL

But remember these are the 11’s. Almost anyone with a Ax, Kx, Qxs, seems to be willing to take a peek at a flop for t30 at the first round. I’ve got 2 in and 5 to act. I’m thinking a call here does not provide any protection?

[allintuit]

I'm DEFINITELY pushing on the flop!

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

What I often see is if the raise is too large, it seems to entice folks to go all-in. At this stage I don’t want anyone going all-in because I won’t know what it means (QQ-AA, AQ+, any 2 pushing for chips).


[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, I've been seeing this idea in recent posts. IMHO, it's just an excuse for weak play.

With the fourth-best starting hand, you *want* to entice people all-in!

It's rare to be certain of anything in poker. You just have to make the best read you can, try to get your chips in as the favorite, and hope for the best as the cards hit the board.

So you raise. So somebody else pushes all-in. Now you have a decision to make, based on your reads. Welcome to poker.

But you absolutely cannot let the fact that somebody *might* re-raise you stop you from making a strong *initial* bet when you have what is likely to be the best starting hand at the table.

I hope I'm not being too strident here, but this is a very important point.

[kyro]

At the very low limits I'm not really looking for protection. I'm looking to flop a set.