My turn to misplay KQ

[Irieguy]

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edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

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I don't disagree with anything you said except this last part. Do you really believe that playing a small pot with position against a timid player who doesn't have a hand is a bad idea? And why do people always say "...let them see a free flop." It won't be free if he overplays a weaker king or queen, will it? It won't be free if he decides to bluff at a queen-high disconnected board.

It's funny that you had to edit a sound post to add this.

Irieguy

[adanthar]

Well, basically, I'm putting in 50 to sometimes win 75 against a guy who's gonna push a lot PF (not counting the SB, whom I really don't want in and who's now gonna feel good about his JTo). On top of that, if he checks, he will pretty much bet when he hits something *good* but check/call when he hits something mediocre that still beats overcards.

If he happens to have a K or Q *and* the flop does its 1 in 8.5 thing to bring another one, great, but he's not strong enough to bluff without one and the percentages say I win chips when I raise PF. Betting impetus etc.

I like open limping earlier on with deeper stacks behind but level 3 when the other guy has 11 BB is pushing it.

[Jason Strasser]

This thinking is very bad Ireguy.

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If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go?

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This is terrible. You are suggesting opening for 10xbb. Think about that situation. Then think about the situation of betting 150 and then calling 585 all in.

Limping is also terrible here. If you raise you win the blinds a plenty percentage of the time. Limping sucks after level 2 IMO. The blinds are worth stealing, steal them.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

[Voltron87]

I raise to 150 and call the all in. I don't see any other way to play it.

[Irieguy]

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This thinking is very bad Ireguy.

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If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go?

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That wasn't a suggestion on what to do, it was a demonstration of why I don't like the raise against somebody who's likey to push.

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Limping is also terrible here. If you raise you win the blinds a plenty percentage of the time. Limping sucks after level 2 IMO. The blinds are worth stealing, steal them.

-Jason

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Well, that's what this all boils down to: how likely is the BB to push at you with a wide range. My impression from the OP was that it was HIGHLY likely. So I don't like the raise. Then, when PVS explained that he still didn't think a push with a wide range was likely, I'd prefer a limp as long as a push was at least somewhat more likely than normal from this type of player.

I'm surprised to hear you say that 75 chips are worth stealing with a raise of 150 or more when you plan to call a push... I disagree wholeheartedly with that. This thinking is very bad Strassa.

Irieguy

[Phil Van Sexton]

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I raise to 150 and call the all in. I don't see any other way to play it.

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I've heard this from several others already.

What I need to know from you: is this gangster or not?

[The Yugoslavian]

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What I need to know from you: is this gangster or not?

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You need to direct this question to Dalibaby....he's the authority on all things ghetto...

I heard he once got in a mean street fight with a toy basket, [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]....this may be heresay though... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Yugoslav
Who may be from Oakland but is not nearly as street as Dalibaby..... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]....

[Jason Strasser]

So if he's pushing a wide range of hands, you want to limp then fold? You wont take KQ against a random hand for a small chunk of your stack? If he is more selective than random, then you'll steal the blinds a percent of the time and race the rest.

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I'm surprised to hear you say that 75 chips are worth stealing with a raise of 150 or more when you plan to call a push...

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You would agree with me (I really hope) that if the opponents in the blinds are anywhere near normal that raising is always correct. If the bb is going nuts and will put it in with any two, then you'll also agree with me that raising and calling the all in is correct? And if he's somewhere in between, wont raising and calling still be correct?

Can we also see that if he is extremely aggro and it is highly likely that he pushes, limping with the plan to fold is terrible? Expecially because even if you do see the flop you're only flopping a k or q 1/3 or so of the time?

You have a 0 EV choice, folding. A very borderline EV choice of calling (it might actually be negative), and a clearly positive EV choice in whatever mode the BB is in of raising.

I still think this is a no brainer.

[Irieguy]

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I am really serious here, I can not believe there are justifications here for folding or calling. Folding seems better than calling, but both options are absolutely horrible when compared to raising.

I want a serious explanation for why limping (OPEN LIMPING ON THE BUTTON HERE?) is a viable option. I also want a range of hands you'll do this with. I also want an explanation for why you dont raise here. I didnt read this entire thread through, but I am seriously in shock.

Open limping on the button really has no place in a sng past maybe level 2. I never do it.

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Well, here's something to think about Strassa...

There are situations, even in a SNG, where a play that is difficult to exploit will still have an even better alternative.

Everybody knows that aggressive late position play and blind pressure is a winning tactic... and the later in a SNG you are, the better the tactic is.

BUT, there are many situations against many players where seeing a flop with position can be more profitable than blind stealing. This is an example in my opinion. The SB has a lot of chips, and the BB is getting a bit desperate and tired of the whole deal. There is a big range of hands with which they would be willing to take a flop against you, and KQ plays well in unraised pots with position (if you are a good post flop player.) You can still steal the blinds on the turn if you want to. But you can also extract extra chips from a whole host of possible postflop developments because of the chip situation. The SB is going to trap with any type of good hand because he knows that one of you is likely to take a stab at this. That makes it easy to play against him for value if he leads out. The BB will certainly push with second pair, or a matching pair with you and worse kicker. That could be cool.

So, my point isn't that you should limp. But I'm sure that I should limp, and to say that playing post flop with chips, against a shortish stack and another player with chips in a No-limit structure is "absolutely horrible" demonstrates a hole in understanding about no limit holdem and what can happen after the flop.

You don't have to agree with me... but to discount my explanation altogether is to ignore an entire component of no limit play that could, at some point, come in handy... even in a SNG.

Irieguy