My turn to misplay KQ

[Apathy]

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What would you do preflop here?

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Well, I'm not sure it makes much difference but I would have made it 175 to go instead of 150, but I certaintly would have raised. Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

[pooh74]

Folding is second best while limping is tragic imo.

That might be a bit overstated...in fact, IF you believe limping is "tragic" then raising is as well. Actually, i retract that, raising will definitely fold the SB, barring a monster, which is huge, granted. But i dont think the gap is applying much more to bb here. IOW I dont think there are many hands that he'd fold to a raise that he wouldnt pop a limp with.

[Irieguy]

I don't know, your background story makes it sound like the villain is getting tired of getting pushed around. I imagine you thought he was likely to push at you.

If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go? If a shark is in the SB, you're screwed... but usually the SB will just let you race villy unless he has a biggie.

Usually against this type of player I would consider limping because it would be quite easy to win the pot even if I miss, and I could double up with top pair... but because of the recent history, I wouldn't do this. It wouldn't be tragic, as Apathy says, however.

I never like raising into somebody that I think will push (unless I'm trapping)... if I'm a-gonna-race, I'm-a-gonna get'em in first.

Irieguy

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
- Villain hadn't been involved in any big hands. He min-raised once at level 2 and limped on several other occasions, but never showed a hand.
- I had been the button once already at level 3. Folded to me with AKs. I raise to 150, blinds fold.
- On the previous hand, the Villian limped UTG and called a 175 raise from the BB. BB checks the flop, villian bets 2/3 pot, BB min-checkraises, villian mucks.

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I don't think this is sufficient information to assume that the BB will push. The BB will very likely only push with decent hands here and not decide that because you raised from the button once before, now is the time to take a stand with J8s.

I'd be careful of assuming your opponent is going to do something here that isn't based on his hand strength.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, your background story makes it sound like the villain is getting tired of getting pushed around. I imagine you thought he was likely to push at you.

If you want to race him, why not just make it 585 to go? If a shark is in the SB, you're screwed... but usually the SB will just let you race villy unless he has a biggie.

Usually against this type of player I would consider limping because it would be quite easy to win the pot even if I miss, and I could double up with top pair... but because of the recent history, I wouldn't do this. It wouldn't be tragic, as Apathy says, however.

I never like raising into somebody that I think will push (unless I'm trapping)... if I'm a-gonna-race, I'm-a-gonna get'em in first.

Irieguy

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He was getting low on chips and I did steal his blind last time, so I figured he wouldn't hesitate if he picked up a decent hand. On the other hand, I didn't really think he would go out of his way to push because he wasn't really standing out as an aggressive player.

I figured my KQ would do ok against his expanded range of hands, so I raised and committed to calling if it came to that. I always consider what I would do if someone pushes behind me whether I have a read or not. I've called and folded in similiar spots before.

It's so marginal that I don't mind folding or calling so I don't burn my table image too early. If they had folded to my raise, I probably show my hand to mitigate this somewhat.

As it turned out, the table saw me insta-call his allin with KQ. The bad players probably thought "he raises with good hands". The good players probably thought "who is that moron insta-calling with K-high?" I'm happy with both of these images.

I think all the options are close. I don't think there is a right and wrong, but I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts. The "steal from big stack and small stack at the same time" pattern comes up often.

btw - The villian had 55 and I won the coinflip. To misquote TJ, "to win a tournament, you have to win with KQ and you have to beat KQ."

[Bigwig]

You made the right play. I'd even raise KQ from the button at level 1. It's an easy hand to define playing against the blinds. And calling the all-in (as you know) is a must.

[Irieguy]

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He was getting low on chips and I did steal his blind last time, so I figured he wouldn't hesitate if he picked up a decent hand. On the other hand, I didn't really think he would go out of his way to push because he wasn't really standing out as an aggressive player.

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Ok, if this was your read then I really like limping here. If he pushes at you, you figure he likes his hand in a race, and KQ doesn't match up well against hands that typical players like in races (ie, you are not likely to be well ahead).

If he's not wild about his hand, or wants to see a flop, you will be in pretty good shape to play this hand for value, or even take it if it's up for grabs. You should be able to do this without blowing any significant chips, and if you have to fold... whatever.

Irieguy

[adanthar]

You made absolutely the right play on every decision in both hands, but what I'd work on is thinking that good players think you're dumb for calling.

Anyone who thinks you're dumb for calling as a big stack getting almost 3:1 is a player who overrates himself and you should exploit that at every opportunity.

PS: Raising to 585 sucks, but only because you're at risk for losing a lot more than that when the SB decides to flat call you with aces or AK or something.

edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
You made absolutely the right play on every decision in both hands, but what I'd work on is thinking that good players think you're dumb for calling.

Anyone who thinks you're dumb for calling as a big stack getting almost 3:1 is a player who overrates himself and you should exploit that at every opportunity.

PS: Raising to 585 sucks, but only because you're at risk for losing a lot more than that when the SB decides to flat call you with aces or AK or something.

edit: I don't like limping on the button because, frankly, the guy is gonna push with anything decent whether you raise or not, and I'm not giving him a free flop when he doesn't have a hand.

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I think he meant "good" players as in "not awful"...poker 102 players.

[TheUsher]

Since anything I would have said has already been done, let me just add a little thing I've noticed from this thread.

Since PVS is a very influential and knowledgeable poster here in addition to being the starter of this thread, there have been many other top players in the forum that have responded to his post. For anyone that hasn't been posting before, it's a neat little lesson in showing that you get back what you give. Now don't be surprised when some new posters don't get many replies on some hands.

Now that's my crazy thought for the day. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]