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  #1  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:03 AM
badplayer badplayer is offline
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Default Moving Up Is Hard To Do

Always seemed to do well at $0.50/1.

Moved up to $1/2: 300BB downwsing in 10k hands. After 50k hands, I'm up 250BB.

Took a stab at $2/4: First 5k hands, and I'm down 200 BB. I seriously feel like giving up all together.

Is there always this harsh of a learning curve? Why does the next higher stakes feel like an entirely different universe? Or is it purely psychological on my part?
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

Hey badplayer I also have had a hard time trying to move up. I feel that a component is psychological. I have done well at 1/2, but spend most of my money and have lost/broke even every time I have tried to go up to 2/4 and 3/6, gotten worried about losing too much and then dropped back to 1/2. I mean I just ended basically a long downswing/breakeven stretch, but am confident that I am a long term winner at 1/2, but if I drop $300 at 2/4 I feel like it's the end of the world.

All that being said, it is also likely that you have not yet made the adjusments to be a winner at the higher stakes game. Over 50K hands at 1/2, 250BB is a winrate of .5BB/100, and while you should feel ok as long as you're a winning player, most of the long term posters here are likely beating the 1/2 game for >2BB/100. So I would focus on adjusting and really beating 1/2, make some more money, and then try again.
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:23 AM
badplayer badplayer is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

Thanks for the advice. I'm definilely dropping back. My win-rate at $1/2 is a bit pathetic. Even dismissing the first 10k hands as my "learning period", I'm still only barely above 1 BB/100, still trying to overcome my weak-tight playbook.

There's another deception going on in my head. Whenever I try to get more aggressive, I seem to lose more (and more often).

When I think I have the best hand, I usually don't. When I think I have the worst hand and it's checked-down or I call the river, sometimes I lose, but sometimes I'm amazed that I take down the pot with such garbage.

But this is all generalities. I'll get back to posting a few hands soon enough.

I'm a sloooooow learner.
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  #4  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice. I'm definilely dropping back. My win-rate at $1/2 is a bit pathetic. Even dismissing the first 10k hands as my "learning period", I'm still only barely above 1 BB/100, still trying to overcome my weak-tight playbook.

There's another deception going on in my head. Whenever I try to get more aggressive, I seem to lose more (and more often).

When I think I have the best hand, I usually don't. When I think I have the worst hand and it's checked-down or I call the river, sometimes I lose, but sometimes I'm amazed that I take down the pot with such garbage.

But this is all generalities. I'll get back to posting a few hands soon enough.

I'm a sloooooow learner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would focus mostly on preflop hand selection/aggression and table selection to start with. I think these are really fundamental to beating 1/2. Post flop I think value betting weak opponents is the most important concept, I'm always amazed at people with decent PT numbers who miss amazingly easily value bets. Aggression definitetly has it's place, and figuring out when/where to semi-bluff, raise for free card, raise for fold equity etc., is appropriate, and in particular which opponents against which it is appropriate. Just gotta play a lot of hands it will work itself out. Good luck.
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:49 AM
Schwartzy61 Schwartzy61 is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

I breezed through $0.50/$1, +650BB over 19,000 hands. I thought no problem, move on to 1/2 and I'll be playing 2/4 in a couple months.

Well, 4 months later and 1/2 has been a bitch for me...

I was breakeven after about 35k hands. Then in my last 8k I've won 220BB. It's still an up and down thing but lately I'm having more ups than downs. That 35k breakeven stretch was probably good for me in the long run as I actually think I've gotten better over those hands and that's why I started to have an easier time winning. I actually see myself making certain plays that I know there was no way I made at the beginning of my career. The whole way I go about a hand is different than it used to be. I know I've come a long way and also know that there as an even longer road ahead of me if I plan to meet my goal of comfortably playing the 5/10 game by the end of 2006...

If it wasn't for bonuses and rakeback I probably would have given up on this game for the most part...which would have been sad given my current state of improvement...

I've dabbled a little at 2/4 and have actually had a little easier time at that level in the couple thousand hands I've played there. I'm waiting for 400BB and a decent win rate at 1/2 over a not so insignificant sample size before moving up full time however.
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2005, 08:53 AM
tassie tassie is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

have good winrate at 1/2 recently moved up to 2/4. Have lost quite a bit at 2/4 but have recognised a few important things.

1. There are some areas of my game I need to improve.
2. There are some really crap players at 2/4 just like 1/2.
3. There are probably a few more good players at each table than 1/2.
4. I really should not be multitabling when I try to move up. 2 at max for me.

Like you have dropped back down to my regular game and found myself playing better than ever. I will try again once the roll has recovered a little from any losses incurred.

I am guessing that this pattern will become familiarl.
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2005, 09:56 AM
WalkAmongUs WalkAmongUs is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

[ QUOTE ]

4. I really should not be multitabling when I try to move up. 2 at max for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this will help anyone the most. I used to multitable 4 or 5 tables and my results were very lackluster. I was missing so many things that it was really cutting into my winrate. I went on a 15k break even stretch followed by a 15k 200BB downswing, both at 2/4 on Party.

I kept reading and studying and decided to switch over to Prima to clear some bonuses. The Prima games were tougher than Party and there was only ever 2 games of 2/4 going on there at the most ever.

This forced me to play only 2 tables and focus and gave me some experience playing against a little bit tougher lineup.

I don't think I'll ever play more than 2 tables again because I believe anything above that and I just can't physically absorb all the information I need to.

I'm now reading my opponents much better and picking up tons of pots and seizing opportunities I would NEVER have even seen playing 4 tables.

I'm back at Party now and over the last 10k hands I'm running >7BB/100 at 2/4 (obviously partly due to running good) and I have >400BB for 3/6 so I'm making the move.

I'm also having a good time picking up pots from multitabling TAGs who give up because they have hands on other tables awaiting them and/or capping them with the nuts because they saw me bluff 1 hand and then missed watching every other hand I played on the table.

edited to say: I'm only playing 2 tables at Party as well now. No more, no less.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:04 PM
jaxUp jaxUp is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

this is a marathon post and mostly morning ramblings...I have tried to separate my ideas with lines.

ok, some of these posts are kind of bothering me, so I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. I am going to be kind of a nit to all of the people talking about winrates, because in all honesty they don't mean much. Even after 100k hands at a given limit you still may be quite far from your true winrate. That being said, since not many of us have the time to play a million hands at each level, we must infer some things from short term results.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have spoken at great length with a couple of posters about moving up in limits, and we seemed to agree that the difficulty of moving up is almost entirely psychological. Generally speaking this means that people tend to play scared. There are 2 ways to play scared:

1. you literally let the curent money you are putting into the pot affect your play. In other words, you won't make a slightly +EV move because you don't want to see your money going into the pot.

2. you get upset about losing a 10BB pot. Then you start to lose confidence. You doubt every play you make and start playing poker well below the level you're capable of.

Either of these will cause your results to be far worse than if you are feeling comfortable and confident with your play. Anybody who has hit a 250BB downswing knows the difference between how you feel when doing well vs. doing poorly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The players at the different levels aren't much better. As long as you continue to develop your game you will be able to beat them. As you move up, players get a little bit tighter, and a little bit trickier. If you truly were a >1BB/100 winner at level "x" then I think that you will almost certainly be an instant winner at level "x+1". That said, you may not experience this success for several (like even 20) thousand hands because of variance. This may mean you have to take several shots to move up successfully, but the point is, if you have a significantly +EV edge in one level, then you should have at least a slightly +EV edge when you move up. This assumes that you don't let the new levels of money mess with your head.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suggestions for moving up:

1. Try using tiltblocker if that will help you from getting upset about losses

2. Take shots (50, 75, 100 BB's) and treat that money as if it's already completely lost. This requires some mental toughness on your part.

3. Play less tables than usual. Another option is to mix in tables. Play 3 1/2 tables and 1 2/4 table, or 2 of each. This will let you autopilot the other ones and focus on the higher stakes games.

4. Review your play. You should already be doing this anyways, but make sure you don't slack off when moving up.

5. At least when at the microlimits, try not to play without a bonus or rakeback. This will soften the blow of losses. However, once you get up to higher levels, it becomes impossible to compensate losses with bonuses, so be prepared for that.

6. Don't be afraid to move down if you know you are getting beat. As Bernie Mac says in the movie "Guess Who", "Pride ain't nothing when it comes to matters of the heart." Well, he was also right about poker it turns out. There's no shame in moving down.

7. Don't identify yourself as an "x-limit" player. If the games are good, try playing a level higher, and if they're especially bad, you may even want to move down. I sometimes play 3 different levels at a time.

8. Practice good table selection when you move up. I think this one is self explanatory.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some specific responses:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'll ever play more than 2 tables again because I believe anything above that and I just can't physically absorb all the information I need to.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know how you feel. 4 or more tables can be VERY overwhelming. However, it is certainly possible to get all the information that you need to excel at many tables. Your BB/100 may suffer a bit, but your BB/hour will increase greatly. If this is not important for you then that's fine, but be aware of it. One thing I like to do is avoid opening all 4 tables at once. Open up 1 and get good reads. Then add another and get reads on it. Continue until the desired # of tables is reached.

[ QUOTE ]
There's another deception going on in my head. Whenever I try to get more aggressive, I seem to lose more (and more often).

When I think I have the best hand, I usually don't. When I think I have the worst hand and it's checked-down or I call the river, sometimes I lose, but sometimes I'm amazed that I take down the pot with such garbage.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you're having some confidence issues. Your problem in moving up probably has less to do with your ability than your mental state. Work on that. Also, when playing aggressive, the pots you lose will be bigger, and you will probably lose more often. But don't forget that the pots you are winning are much bigger too. Aggressive poker is high variance, and you need to be prepared to deal with the swings. This means not tilting, and constantly looking at your play objectively.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you read this far, thank you.
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:13 PM
car ramrod car ramrod is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

this post should be quoted every time we get a thread about moving up in limits.

nice work Jax
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:18 PM
Pedigree Pedigree is offline
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Default Re: Moving Up Is Hard To Do

[ QUOTE ]
ok, some of these posts are kind of bothering me, so I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. I am going to be kind of a nit to all of the people talking about winrates, because in all honesty they don't mean much. Even after 100k hands at a given limit you still may be quite far from your true winrate. That being said, since not many of us have the time to play a million hands at each level, we must infer some things from short term results.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to believe that after 100,000 hands you can be quite far from your true winrate. And, yes, I've taken statistics courses.
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