Terrible play? Or standard?

MoreWineII · #1 07-23-2004, 04:06 PM

I don't have my hand history handy at the moment, so this is off the top of my head.

Hero is the button with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. 4 limpers to me, I call, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, 3 callers to me. I call. SB folds.

5 to the turn which is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB again bets and still we don't lose anyone.

River is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets again, 2 callers to me, I raise, everyone calls.

BB proceeds to rail about how badly I played the hand (I found out later he had J8 - whoopty friggin' do!) I think it's fairly standard. The flop brought me backdoor straight and flush draws as well as *possible* K outs.

With these callers, the *bad* play would be to muck my hand here, no?

sthief09 · #2 07-23-2004, 04:12 PM

getting 11-1 on the flop, with only one player to act behind you, you can make this call. 1.5 outs for the flush, another ~2 outs for a pair, and I guess .5 for a straight draw, makes 4 outs. throw in implied odds and I don't see anything wrong with calling the flop.

MoreWineII · #3 07-23-2004, 04:17 PM

This was one of the most passive tables I've been at recently. I thought the likelyhood of a raise happening at any point during the hand pretty remote.

I figured I would get to see as many cards as I wanted to for the cheapest price possible, which also factored into my thinking (as well as be called if and when I hit and raised).

I miss that table already. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

tech · #4 07-23-2004, 04:19 PM

Not only do I call, but also I think an argument can be made for raising as the proper play.

sthief09 · #5 07-23-2004, 04:19 PM

it's funny because if I were at the table with you, I probably would've thought you played it terribly. But when I broke it down, it looked good to me.

MoreWineII · #6 07-23-2004, 04:29 PM

Can you go into that a little further, Tech?

onegymrat · #7 07-23-2004, 04:46 PM

Hi MoreWine,

Your flop call is of dubious value. You have nothing. You will slowly bleed your chips away without even knowing it with calls like this. Had there been a pf raise, then your call may have better value. On the other hand, you wouldn't cold-call a pf raise with K7s. The turn call is obvious. Being that you hit your hand, congratulations.

StellarWind · #8 07-23-2004, 04:48 PM

You have nominally 3 outs for the king, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, and 1 for the two-way backdoor straight. Needless to say you have major across-the-board quality issues with these draws and need to take a serious discount.

You are getting good implied odds because BB is betting through the field toward you. You also have the button with its promise of an occasional no-particular-reason-at-all free card.

Do you trust SB not to attack your exposed back?

Raising is self-destructive. A free card has little value if you fail to improve on the turn. Certainly a 3-bet would be a disaster.

I accept your call and reject BB's disparaging remarks. I also have no problem with a discreet fold. Your outs are cheesy and will often lead you into a painful second-best hand. Your equity in this pot is best viewed with a microscope.

MoreWineII · #9 07-23-2004, 04:57 PM

Great posts.

For the record, I don't make many calls like this. In this particular hand, there were a couple of perceptions that convinced me that a call was in order.

They were a.) that the table was incredibly passive (check-calling stations). I didn't fear a check-raise from the small blind at all. In fact, I don't think I saw more than one or two check-raises by the other players in the hour and a half that I played at the table. And b.) I sincerely believed that if I did hit my hand, that at least a couple of players would pay off my raise.

Good thinking or faulty thinking?

tech · #10 07-23-2004, 05:02 PM

Sure. Sorry, I should have expanded before. First let me say that I really do not think raising is better than calling because of your position relative to the flop bet -- just that an argument could be made. I am pretty sure that both are better than folding, however. Look at flop quiz 7 in SSHE.

Arguments for calling:
--you are closing the action
--most people won't fold for one more bet, so you are unlikely to drive anyone out

Arguments for raising:
--probably buy a free card on the turn
--might get a better K to fold