Advice for draw poker online?

[popniklas]

Okay, everyone, thanks again for your advice. I have read most of the Zadeh and Wiesenberg books. Winning Poker Systems is a great resource indeed. I didn't like the Wiesenberg book, though. I found it chatty and unfocused, plus all of the disucssion of the game assumed the use of a bug and the jacks-or-better rule. (It seems good for lowball though, so I don't regret buying it.)

I have improved my draw game a lot and am winning regularly at Paradise. However, I still think I got a lot to learn, especially since I just got CRUSHED in my first shot at the 24h PL games, which made me feel quite pathetic.

Any advice on how to adjust to those game, compared to play at Paradise, would be appreciated. Do you raise the pot when you open? Raise another amount? Limp? Different plays with different hands?

I had no clue about that so I was basically experimenting. One thing that worked good was when I limped with 777 utg and then reraised the pot when someone raised. One player called and drew three. I drew one and bet half the pot after the draw. She folded. Otherwise I took down some pots predraw and lost most of the pots I played til showdown. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I felt clueluess in situations such as when I raised utg with Qs up and someone reraised the pot. (I called predraw, checked and called a small bet after the draw and was shown Ks up.)

And if you raise in EP with AA and someone rereaise, should you fold?

I'm sure this game is fun when you know how to play it well, but Paradise draw is a lot easier, at least for someone who sucks at big bet poker. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[crabbypatty]

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Okay, everyone, thanks again for your advice. I have read most of the Zadeh and Wiesenberg books. Winning Poker Systems is a great resource indeed. I didn't like the Wiesenberg book, though. I found it chatty and unfocused, plus all of the disucssion of the game assumed the use of a bug and the jacks-or-better rule. (It seems good for lowball though, so I don't regret buying it.)


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sorry that you didn't get much from wisenberg's book. i thought the same thing the first time i read it. my advice play a little more and reread it. just the parts on double limit draw p.149 through no-limit draw p.163 of course you do have to make some adjustments because of the # of players and the joker but, you should get your investment in the book back by a very wide margin. (just for curoisity, how much did you pay for it, with shipping?)

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I just got CRUSHED in my first shot at the 24h PL games, which made me feel quite pathetic. Any advice on how to adjust to those game, compared to play at Paradise, would be appreciated. Do you raise the pot when you open? Raise another amount? Limp? Different plays with different hands?


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well you are new to draw to begin with correct? getting crushed at big bet poker seems like an understandable thing.
i would advise to raise when you come into a pot. also to play squeakie tight. what limit are you starting at? in other words don't come in with less than aces. if you are playing the higher limits. 2-4 and up.(and i can't think of a reason why you would be) then you will have to come in with more hands but, that is another discussion.

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I had no clue about that so I was basically experimenting. One thing that worked good was when I limped with 777 utg and then reraised the pot when someone raised. One player called and drew three. I drew one and bet half the pot after the draw. She folded. Otherwise I took down some pots predraw and lost most of the pots I played til showdown.

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i like this play.(first half) one question though: your position relative to the caller with AA?
what i don't like about this play is your bet postdraw. were you first to act? if so this makes a little more sense. were you willing to lay your hand down if raised the pot, which is substantial now? if you were last to act what do you think your opponent will call with? how about if they ck-raise you? are you going to lay it down now? maybe a better play with small trips is to draw 2 and ck it down or ck and call a single bet. many of the players there will draw 2 to big pairs so aces might bet at you if you draw 2. let's hear what the rest of the peanut gallery has to say about this one. <font color="red"> come on, speak up peanuts! </font>

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I felt clueluess in situations such as when I raised utg with Qs up and someone reraised the pot. (I called predraw, checked and called a small bet after the draw and was shown Ks up.)

And if you raise in EP with AA and someone rereaise, should you fold?


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well as to getting crushed the first time you played. this may be why?
calling the reraise and the bet after the draw with QQXX. this is not a terrible play. questionable but not terrible. however this play is indicative that you were probably being <font color="blue"> held over</font> your entire session. sometimes you just can not win.
as to raising with AA and calling a reraise. first do you have position? did anyone limp behind you? do you know your opponent?
this game is ALL about position and knowing your opposition!
i would sooner call a reraise with AA than i would with QQJJ without more players to call me after the draw in case i fill with the 2pr. 10.75:1 against you btw. i would also prefer to have position. if i didn't know anything about my opponent i might call to learn but, it is much cheaper to let others do the calling for you and check the hand histories.

[popniklas]

I was playing the lowest limit, €0.25/0.5.

I'm fairly new to draw (except for home games), but I've been thinking a lot about the game lately and the last month and a half I've been winning regularly at the paradise draw games. (Win rate: $8.99/hr over 65 hours of $1/2 since I started to use StatKing in early April. Most of those hours I played two tables, so it's not like I've made 4.5 BB/hr per table.)

The thing is that the Paradise structure is the only draw game I've been playing seriously, plus my experience with pot limit play is very limited.

About the 777 play: caller held the button. I thought that after limping and then reraising the pot, it would be obvious that I had trips if I drew 2. Maybe you're right about checking after the draw, a reraise here would probably mean AAA and would be hard to call (then again it MIGHT have meant aces up or a bluff... what would you do in this situation?) and obviously, she would not call me with just AA here. All in all, if she improves to aces up, I'll probably get a little more money, but if she improves to AAA I'm screwed. Checking and calling is probably better, since it's safer, plus she might bet aces up (am I right?).

"however this play is indicative that you were probably being held over your entire session. sometimes you just can not win."

I don't really get what you mean here. That I had bad luck or that I was being outplayed? Or something else? Not familiar with the expression "being held over".

Also, a general question: if someone raises in early position, and another player reraises, what range of hands could the reraiser have? Good two pair or better? Is it depending on the size of the raises?

[crabbypatty]

glad to hear that you started at the lowest limit. smart move.

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I'm fairly new to draw (except for home games), but I've been thinking a lot about the game lately and the last month and a half I've been winning regularly at the paradise draw games. (Win rate: $8.99/hr over 65 hours of $1/2 since I started to use StatKing in early April. Most of those hours I played two tables, so it's not like I've made 4.5 BB/hr per table.)

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this is definately a good win rate especially for this game. i know there are others saying that are making this much on 3 seperate tables for $1K/week sustained. not sure you can expect these kinds of results but, maybe it can be done.

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About the 777 play: caller held the button. I thought that after limping and then reraising the pot, it would be obvious that I had trips if I drew 2. Maybe you're right about checking after the draw, a reraise here would probably mean AAA and would be hard to call (then again it MIGHT have meant aces up or a bluff... what would you do in this situation?) and obviously, she would not call me with just AA here. All in all, if she improves to aces up, I'll probably get a little more money, but if she improves to AAA I'm screwed. Checking and calling is probably better, since it's safer, plus she might bet aces up (am I right?).


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i agree that it would seem more obvious that you had trips when you limp-reraise and draw 2 but if you check it to the caller all you will have to call is the size of the pot. you just have to make a judgement on whether your opponent would bluff at you or not when you practically declare trips. your other problem is: with limp-reraising you are saying that you have a big hand(usually trips at the minimum). am i right? would you make this play with aces-up? might want to think about adding it to your game <font color="blue"> or </font>just drawing 2. most players at higher limits will read you for trips anyhow, even with drawing 1. (there are no absolutes but, that is usually the 'legitimate' minimum to make this play)
i think there is something to be said for drawing 1 to trips when you are up front. if your opponent makes 2 pair you just might get a bet out of them. i would however only check it to them and let them do the betting. unless you are willing to lay your hand down to a big reraise.(which could also be a bluff)

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I don't really get what you mean here. That I had bad luck or that I was being outplayed? Or something else? Not familiar with the expression "being held over".

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what i mean is, yes, you may have had bad luck. if you held KK, your opponent has AA. if you have 777, your opponent has TTT. if you have a str8, he has a flush, etc. in other words he is always holding something bigger than you.

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Also, a general question: if someone raises in early position, and another player reraises, what range of hands could the reraiser have? Good two pair or better? Is it depending on the size of the raises?

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i would say at least 2pr. i have been known to reraise with AA but, i am crazy [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] usually you will need to have a very strong hand to come in after 2 pot-sized raises. you would prefer to be able to put your whole stack in now. if the raises are small like +.25, +.25 and so on you can be fairly sure you are against AA or small 2pr. that is why they are raising small. they are afraid of their hands. as always you would love to know the other players tendencies and react accordingly. so keep notes!!!

[bigpooch]

Recently, there has been very good action at Poker Network
where you can also get a tiered rake rebate from one of the
skins (BetOnBet).

If you're there, you'll know who I am (unless someone also
plays more than 5 tables regularly)! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Notorious G.O.B.]

It seems to me that multitabling draw on London Poker Club would be very difficult, since they don't tell you how many cards everybody drew, once the betting round starts.

Incidentally, am I the only one who's upset that they added multitabling? This place used to be a gold mine, now it's a bed of rocks. Also, I think having different tables for each different currency is a mistake as well.

Have you tried out the action on Pokerroom, yet Pooch?

[bigpooch]

I've played on BetOnBet (a skin of Poker Room/Poker Network)
for less than a week and the action is exceptional.

There is possibly a software bug since although I cannot
attempt to open a fifth window to sit at a table with a
vacant seat, if I am summoned to a table because I have put
my name on the waiting list, another window appears and I
can play at this table. I have played up to seven tables
at BetOnBet and have more than half of the requisite number
of points to clear the $100 bonus so I haven't quite logged
a lot of hours yet to say much about the software and other
games (such as LHE). I'll say this though: the softest draw
games are at Poker Room.

I'll be unlucky if I am only up about $1000 at the end of
this week at the site (I am trying to seven-table more
regularly but the software is not as friendly as Paradise
for preselecting cards to discard)! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[popniklas]

I 2-tabled Sportingbet Pokers draw tables today (same as London Poker Club) and it was no problem. Sure, you had to stay focused in order not too miss any important information, and playing several tables at the same times would be tricky, but 2 tables were no problem.

And what rocks are you talking about? Not the guys I played with today, that's for sure. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[popniklas]

As a Swedish player, I am not allowed at Poker Room, but I think that BetOnBet would work.

Seems very good, I have pm:ed you about it.

[Notorious G.O.B.]

No rocks in draw, certainly, but the hold'em games are much worse than they were.