Paradise Draw Poker Question

[HMS Surprise]

I'm consistently beating the Paradise 1/2 draw game and am looking to move up. Anybody think there is much of a difference between the 1/2 and the 2/4 game or just a higher limit? If it plays differently, in what ways? I know there is much less table selection available.

[bigpooch]

I'm consistently beating the Paradise 1/2 draw game and am looking to move up.


Well, it's not really that hard to beat the 1/2 game on a
consistent basis. For example, I can't see any decent
players having even one losing week in 100 given the level
of play. Also, if you can play three tables, you can
average almost $1000 a week if you put in full time hours as
long as you are somewhat selective of the tables.


Anybody think there is much of a difference between the 1/2 and the 2/4 game or just a higher limit?


It's almost the same except that the rake is brutal in the
2-4 as opposed to the 1-2 and that's one of the reasons to
play it less often. In the 1-2 there are many unraked pots
when it's heads up with the BB or when it's unraised before
the draw. On the other hand, in the 2-4, and in the 3-6,
the rake punishes the players to such an extreme that you
actually have to make adjustments to your opening hands and
often that means less opportunities to play an exploitive
opening strategy. The 3-6 is even worse and the blind
structure requires that you play closer to "Wiesenberg 101".
Now, playing the minimal (and subminimal) Zadeh hands gets
you in serious trouble. Nevertheless, the games are still
beatable, but not nearly as autopilot as the 1-2.


If it plays differently, in what ways? I know there is much less table selection available.


The players do play better and most of the time, the opener
will raise as opposed to the better 1-2 tables where you
often get free plays in the big blind and cheap plays in the
small blind. Also, many of the players know to reraise with
hands like AKK22 whereas in the 1-2 players often don't
protect their trips by only smooth calling. In addition,
you won't see as many blunders such as playing shorts or
defending the blinds with clear losers. On the other hand,
there are still a lot of errors and money left on the table
in the 2-4 and 3-6 tables. And an occasional live one does
sit down to compensate for all the other negative factors.

The 5-10 goes even less often than the 2-4 and 3-6 and many
times it is only four-handed or less. The ante structure
difference is small and the rake is reasonable. Also, the
players are not significantly tougher than the players that
play the 2-4 or 3-6.

[HMS Surprise]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Bigpooch. I really do appreciate it. I have been mostly single tabling as I make more mistakes (drawing to the wrong cards, raising when I should be folding, etc.,)when I multi table. I averaged about 2.5 Big Bets per hour at 1/2 draw for March. Your comments on the rake were very helpful as I hadn't figured that into the equation. Maybe I'll try multi tabling more 1/2 and see how that goes, with the occasional foray to the 2/4 game if it looks juicy.

[crabbypatty]

[ QUOTE ]

For example, I can't see any decent
players having even one losing week in 100 given the level
of play. Also, if you can play three tables, you can
average almost $1000 a week if you put in full time hours as
long as you are somewhat selective of the tables.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, so you are saying that you can average 4 big bets/hour/table for 2000-4000+ hours?(you did say 100 weeks) That seems a little high! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
What is your idea of full time hours? 40/week?
Do you never have a losing session?
You are not absolutely serious about this, are you, or are you just throwing #'s around? I am not asking if you did this <font color="blue">one time.<font color="black">
I am asking about long term results.
This seems spurious to me considering there are only about 30-50 players there at any one time. Where is all these bets coming from? They are all not losing players are they?

[bigpooch]

Well, to be honest, maybe I put in more than 40 hours at the
draw tables last week. My balance on Paradise went up by
exactly $1059.25 which included a loss of $180 in the 40-80.
I also played some 5-10 LHE and lost a little but may have
won almost the same amount in the 8-16 and 3-6, so say that
overall I was down about $250 playing LHE on Paradise, so
I'll guess that last week I was up about $1300 at the draw
tables, although clearly some time was spent at the 2-4 and
3-6 draw tables (this week I don't remember playing any
5-10). Okay, maybe I also spent more than 40 hours at the
draw tables! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I did keep accurate records (pre 2005), I was able to
determine my win rate was almost 4 BBs/table-hour albeit at
the 1-2 level. The SD was such that for an 8-hour session,
I would expect to lose at only 3% of them, so it's almost
impossible to have a losing week. According to my records
in 2003 and 2004, including the days when Paradise only
allowed two tables, it was unusual if my weekly balance was
not up between $800 and $1100.

Also, I would say that my draw play could be more efficient:
I often don't play as optimally as I could because I am so
often 7-tabling, so my hands per hour decline as well as I
make a usual slip (mouse or mental) at the draw tables which
hurts my hourly rate. I am sure some of the better draw
players will mention how easy the games are and having a
long-term average of 3 BBs to 4 BBs per table hour isn't
something to write home about; besides, there are often
110 hands dealt per table per hour (and sometimes I have
seen that number surpass 140!).

[RitmoEnElCaos]

I can back up what bigpooch is saying, and even go so far to say that if you single-table, you can average 8 to 10 bb/hr at Paradise 1/2 Draw over months of play.

[DOMIT]

dang! I must be doing something wrong!! I have booked/recorded over 400 hrs and just recently have been beating it for 3bb/hr (I had a nice 100hr run at 5bb/hr, but I have not sustained that).

Still, I'm happy with making 3bb/hr at 1/2 since I normally 2 or 3 table. I will say, though, that I hit and run a lot! I won't play a game that shows less than 35% pre. This limits my table selection.

I think my biggest problem is that I play too straight forward... Bigpooch, et el, if you care to blast my play with any constructive critizism, I'd appreciate any help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks,
Glenn

[bigpooch]

Sorry, DOMIT! I haven't been playing that much draw except
in the last few months. My player notes on you don't say
very much other than notably the biggest I have seen you
play is the 2-4 and that when you reraise, I have only seen
you draw two cards (but haven't seen you get paid off yet in
this situation!). Also, I don't often type in player notes
as often as I used to because I am often 7-tabling but to
compensate I usually look at HHs for the games bigger than
the 2-4 draw.

I don't think a 3 to 4 BB per table hour win rate is at all
very inefficient , even if you are selective of the tables
you play! I am quite sure that something above 5 BBs per
table hour is unsustainable unless you are a complete nit
and wait to play against the absolutely worst players at the
site! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DOMIT]

Yeah, 3-betting pre, I won't often do with trips or less, unless I know the person. I'll 3-bet you with two pair [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Since I seek out newbies tho, I might not 3-bet w/ less than Kings-up, since many don't know the strenth of their hands and won't raise w/ less than trips.

Notes, notes, notes.. as always "it depends".

Still, shows that I'm probably too much of a nit and need to push edges alittle more here and there.

Thanks for the re [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[HMS Surprise]

Domit,

In reference to your hitting and running alot, what's your reason behind doing this. The reason I ask is that if I'm up a quick $15.00 to $20.00 in a session, I tend to do the same thing. Seems like in those sessions, if I do stick around longer, the cards go dead or my few good hands don't hold up and after an hour I'm up $6.00 or so and asking myself why I didn't quit earlier.

It seems like good play shouldn't vary that much and I shouldn't be in a hurry to leave a good table but sometimes the temptation is to take a good win and move on to another table. Just curious as it is something that has been bothering me about my game.

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]