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  #1  
Old 12-12-2005, 11:58 PM
imported_stealthcow imported_stealthcow is offline
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Default 2 Big Pair Laydowns

hand 1:

button is a 60/4. passive postflop. our history is that i've been owning him/her, and i've seen a few (maybe 2 or 3) turn raise bluffs with air of which i've called down. but all of the raises i'v seen from him/her have been on the turn and for hte most part its check call check call ( in the headsup pots we've had).

btn is super passive, liek a 40/1.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (15.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB




hand 2:

mp is a 30/20 over not nearly enough nads to say anything concise. so dont take that to mean too much, and we haven't tangoed at all, so i dont have any reads on him yet. button is bad, like a 40/5ish or something, and calls down and sucks out on me like a champ. ditto for utg.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (16.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (16.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, Hero folds,
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:34 AM
thesharpie thesharpie is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

Hand 1 you give 2 different reads on the button yet there is no button in the hand. Is CO the 40/1 guy? I probably play it the same, it sure looks like someone has you beat on that turn too often and you'd like to see a river for 1 bet rather than 2.

In hand 2 I'd just lead the flop. Bad turn fold, you're almost getting enough to try to hit your set although you're not closing the action, but you still have the best hand here some of the time, you only need to be good here a small amount due to the huge pot size.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:22 AM
Mathieu Mathieu is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

Why the river fold in hand 1?

You now beat QJ with the board pairing. Getting 17-1, you have to be absolutely sure you are beat and I think there is enough doubt to call.

I need a really good read to fold Hand 2. You did not have such a read so given the pot size I call down without a bad conscience.

I am guessing that you are probably experienced enough to make a big laydown in a big pot with a good read. I am not. But even then, I would not fold these hands as I believe there is still doubt in hand 1, and the read is not solid enough in hand 2.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:02 AM
imported_stealthcow imported_stealthcow is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing that you are probably experienced enough to make a big laydown in a big pot with a good read. I am not.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the only thing i disagree with in your post. noting that i now beat QJ in hand 1 i think is huge. also the way the hand was played, i (now) think it was def. right of me to check the turn because i have a lot outs and want to pay 1 bet not 2 if i'm behind. but becuase no ones play declares they have an A i gotta call the river.

in hand 2, i set myself up to make a turn laydown by how strong i played the flop. i think my line is good against someoen i have a history/ knowledge of. most players i can tell if i have &gt;100 hands, and a few hands agaisnt if they are a 2p2er or not. or if i can make this fold or not. but with only 30 hands my read was basically none. so my line, which lets me make a good laydown if i know the other player is quite atrocious (imo) if i dont.

stealthcow-
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

That's the first thing I noticed on hand 1 also, the fact that QJ is now dead to you. You may be butting heads against AQ or something of that sort also, but in that big of a pot, I know I just couldn't make myself fold for 1 bet.

Hand 2, the more I look at it, I kinda like the fold. Again, I doubt I'm folding this cuz I'm a fish, but I think he's gonna turn over AA/KK quite often.
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2005, 07:06 AM
Peter Harris Peter Harris is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

hand 1: if i call the turn i'm calling the river. The gutshot is on and you miss, granted, but you are ahead of several hands, and getting 17-1 you can afford to overcall MP and see wtf UTG openlimped with and went berserko on the flop. If it's AQ more the better for noting you with.

hand 2: you may be ahead of JJ and TT and you pretty much have odds to draw to your Q as this person will make it a cap on the river given the aggression thus far. I wouldn't lay down this turn.
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:53 PM
TomBrooks TomBrooks is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

Hand 1:

<u>Call. </u>

We'll see QJ here sometimes. Utg might only have Qx and have bet the turn because you checked it. He could have Q9, or he might have gotten aggressive with a straight or flush draw on the turn, and bluffed the river when you checked to him. I think we'll win this enough times to make calling considerably +EV.

Hand 2:

<u>Call. </u>

We're concerned about A2s, KK, and AA, but we'll beat 66, 77, 88, TT, JJ, or an overplayed A3, A4, A5, or Abig. I think we're good at least one time in 17.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:28 PM
jt1 jt1 is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

hand 1, I think you're good here about 50% of the time.

hand 2: I like your flop play. You went for a check raise and settled for just building the pot when you're ahead at least 1/3 of the time. However, at that point, I'm not sure if you can expect to win 1/3 of the time. This is an interesting theory question.

Turn: You will improve 1/23.5 times and your calling down odds with the expected river action is about 20-2. If you hit then that grows to 22-2. You could be ahead. Your instincts should be to call down. You have to be pretty convinced that you won't win 1/12 times here to fold this turn.
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:45 PM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

Hand 1,
Call the river and its a tempting turn bet(Gutshot, We may be ahead etc) although im ok with calling.

The river card 7 helped us assuming someone folded there 7X hand(8:1 gives them odds to chase, but the flop raises may of caused them to lay it down who knows.

Also your closing the action so i think you're good enough to make that CALL +EV.

Hand 2,
You're behind AA/KK and as hes a lag, you dont think he would play TT/JJ like this?

i'm calling down.
if the turn was a 2 or a 6 i'd be more willing to let it go.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:59 PM
Guruman Guruman is offline
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Default Re: 2 Big Pair Laydowns

--blind response--

in hand 1 I think I lead the turn.

Villain could have a hand like AK with a spade, KJ with a spade, KQ, or TT at the bottom of his range. He just called your flop raise, which means he doesn't think he can beat the field UI. It also means that his raise was for protection and that he would have much prefered to get HU. This rules out QQ, JJ and maybe AA from the top end of his range.

By checking the turn, we're forcing him to bet all of his paired hands - including the ones that we beat like KQ, AJ, and TT.

If we lead and he raises we can make an easy fold. More likely he'll just call and we could get HU, where we can check and call on the river. If we lead and don't get HU, then we check and call one but don't overcall.

hand 2 I think I like.
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