The Suffering God

[NotReady]

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So the disagreement I mentioned isn't enough to keep HIM from being saved? Would udon'tknowmickey agree with that?


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If you mean can a Christian believe wrongly about how some people are saved then the answer is yes. All Christians make doctrinal errors. I don't know what udon't would say about that.

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Search fo his posts if you don't mind and give me your opinion


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Why don't you pick one for me? I've probably read his posts but I skim a lot, have a short attention span and a bad memory.

[PairTheBoard]

NotReady --
" PTB's statements are consistent with atheism or pantheism"

Sklansky thinks my statements imply I'm a Catholic or a Liberal Christian or at least a believer in God while Notready thinks my statements are consistent with atheism or pantheism.

Meanwhile you guys are ignoring the possible merits of viewing god as a suffering god.

PairTheBoard

[Cyrus]

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The death of God’s Christ is in part God’s atonement to his creatures for evil.

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Only a supreme sadist would allow, while being all-powerful, for evil to exist. (Else, He is NOT all poweful but impotent before evil.)

Notice also that the notion of God dying introduces yet another in the series of paradoxa, in Christianity.

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What do you mean when you say, "I am one too, formally"?

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I'm formally a Christian, although not exactly a practicing one. (But let me emphatically add, in case you wana invite me to your daughter's wedding, that I fully respect the ceremonial!)

[PairTheBoard]

Goetz --
"The death of God’s Christ is in part God’s atonement to his creatures for evil."

Cyrus --
"Only a supreme sadist would allow, while being all-powerful, for evil to exist. (Else, He is NOT all poweful but impotent before evil.)"

Did you read the whole discussion by Goetz on the link? I think his argument is that God allows evil for the sake of some ultimate good and that this is the best of possible worlds in the grand long term view. Given that, god suffers along with humans so that he's not asking anything of us he's not willing to go through himself. Thus the cross as symbol of his atonement to us for the evil he allows. Goetz admits this is a radical theology. I'm not sure what to make of it myself.


You might notice that I mentioned in my OP that Goetz does not suggest that a Suffering God solves the problems of good and evil that you describe in your post. In fact, Goetz says that The Suffering God excacerbates those problems. You might argue now that not only is God a Sadist to allow Evil but a Masochist to suffer with it.


I do find the idea of a god who suffers with us one that a lot of people intuit as part of their personal relationship with god. As Goetz points out in his discussion, most theologians he talks to agree with the idea of god suffering with us although they may not embed it in their theology. It seems to me a healthy thing for Christians to believe that god is involved and participates when they mistreat another or when they suffer from mistreatment themselves.

Cyrus --
"I'm formally a Christian, although not exactly a practicing one. "

How then do you reconcile your Christian beliefs with the paradoxes you raise above?

PairTheBoard

[Cyrus]

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[Goetz's] argument is that God allows evil for the sake of some ultimate good and that this is the best of possible worlds in the grand long term view.

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Notions such as "possible worlds" and "long term view" have meaning only in human terms. As far as God is concerned (according, at least, to what He told us), He can choose anything He wants. Which means, that "experimenting" with humans ( to see if they will go this or that route) is meaningless: He knows either way!

We can speculate on His reasons with Goetz for weeks but it all comes down to the same dilemma: Bored or sadist?

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You might argue now that not only is God a Sadist to allow Evil but a Masochist to suffer with it.

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Only to the extent that, for some Godforsaken reason, God chooses to limit his powers! And allow Evil elbow room.

...You realize what a can of new worms such an interpretation opens.

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Given that, god suffers along with humans so that he's not asking anything of us he's not willing to go through himself.

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I note, with horror, the absence of respectful caps in the words referring to our Lord. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Remember, He reads everything!

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How do you reconcile your Christian beliefs with the paradoxes you raise above?

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I did not say I hold Christian beliefs. I said I'm formally a Christian. I was baptized a Christian and have not formally denounced Christianity. (8I wouldn't even know how to do that.)

[PairTheBoard]

Cyrus --
"I did not say I hold Christian beliefs. I said I'm formally a Christian. I was baptized a Christian and have not formally denounced Christianity. (8I wouldn't even know how to do that.) "

Why don't you just denounce it? It appears you find it intollerable.

PairTheBoard

[NotReady]

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Meanwhile you guys are ignoring the possible merits of viewing god as a suffering god.


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Jesus is God and He did suffer. The idea that He suffered because He is evil is beyond blasphemy.

[John Cole]

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I said I'm formally a Christian. I was baptized a Christian and have not formally denounced Christianity. (I wouldn't even know how to do that.)



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I think you spin in a circle three times while uttering "I denounce thee."

[Cyrus]

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Why don't you just denounce [Christianity]? It appears you find it intolerable.

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Not intolerable; just untenable.

I do not confuse the teachings of Christianity on how to conduct one's life (which are alright, especially for persons who need an outsider's moral compass) with the atrocities committed in the religion's name, which indeed I (and you too should) find deplorable.

[David Sklansky]

"Jesus is God and He did suffer. The idea that He suffered because He is evil is beyond blasphemy."

I already said that. Stop stealing my lines.