A 2-Hour Experiment in Folding

x2ski · #1 12-18-2005, 05:00 AM

Lately I feel as though I've been calling down too much, so I decided to take two hours out of tonight's session, fold some hands that I would normally call down, and record what I felt were the more questionable ones.

Critique away!

Hand #1:

Villain is a 41.5/4.5/1.75

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Hand #2:

Villain is a 25/8.75/0.73

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds.

Hand #3:

Same Villain as in Hand #2

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB raises, Hero folds.

Hand #4:

Again, same villain as in Hands #2 & #3

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Hand #5:

Villain is a 24.5/6.5/1.25

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG folds, MP1 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Hand #6:

Villain is a 16/11.5/1.75

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Hand #7:

Villain is a 17/8/2.5

My flop play is questionable here IMHO... Yeah, I wanted to get the 3rd guy out, but did villain's 3-bet tell me something? I'm thinking so.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Hand #8:

Villain is a 12/8.5/1.5

This hand is just wrecked, and no I didn't fold... But I think a fold can be found on the turn. Feel free to tell me otherwise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls.

River: (11.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Hand #9:

Villain is a 22/8/3

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Hand #10:

Villain is a 40/0.0/.75

I don't know what I was trying to get done with the turn check... Maybe I was just scared.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.66 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Hand #11:

UTG+2 is a 36/19/3 and SB is a 32/7/2

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds.

Harv72b · #2 12-18-2005, 06:19 AM

Sooooo many hands.

Hand 1: I'm calling that river raise against this particular opponent every time. A guy that aggressive is going to be raising the river with a lot of hands that you beat here...or at the least, getting 11:1 on your call, I think it's safe to assume he's bluffing/raising a worse hand at least 1 in 11 times.

Hand 2: Good fold. This guy looks pretty passive, and I think it's safe to give him credit for a rivered 2 pair or straight or whatever.

Hand 3: Once again, unless he's the extremely rare slight loose/passive player who actually adjusts his gameplay based on yours, a good fold. He's probably not check/raising you without the flush here, and you don't have anywhere near the odds to draw to a 4-outer against that.

Hand 4: This one I don't like. Even a relatively passive player will make odd moves here like betting out with his A2 or K3 or AQ or what have you. I don't think that his lead on the flop absolutively has to be top pair, and against this opponent, I think you can run a raise/check through line pretty much always.

Hand 5: Good fold. Pretty much every draw that he could've had just came in on the river, and it's hardly outside the realm of possibility that he had the Q all the way.

Hand 6: Yuck. Way too weak to fold an overpair at this point in the hand, especially since the pot is laying you more than enough odds to try and turn your 2-outer (if that's indeed what you have). Don't try too hard to find "good folds".

Hand 7: This one's a little iffy, yes, but probably a good fold based on his likely 3-betting range. Really, the only hand he could reasonably hold that you're ahead of is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and the pot isn't big enough to call down on that chance.

Hand 8: There might be a fold on the turn, but it'd take a far better player than me to make it. I pay this one off every time. And franky, I often bet/call the river.

Hand 9: I'm not too hot on this fold, either--I think villain flopped two pair a pretty big portion of the time, and against every two pair combo except K7 you have enough outs to see the river.

Hand 10: Good fold. If it's me, though, I choke down the vomit long enough to bet/fold the turn, intending to check through a non-Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] river.

Hand 11: You didn't give a read for BB, but against all but the most passive players I'm raising the flop. As it played out...yeah, probably a good turn fold the second time around.

Bob T. · #3 12-18-2005, 01:54 PM

OK, a bunch of hands, and they seem to be similar situations.

1 - KK, well, I would probably pay off here, but he has played the hand like a flush draw, or even more like a straight draw, maybe he had 98. But I think that the possibility that a player as loose and aggressive as this one had somethinkg like KQ, AQ, or Q9, and decided to take one last shot on the river is good enough that calling down is probably better than folding.

2, 3, 4- This player is slightly loose, and slightly passive postflop. I think his postflop raises are meaningful, and I like the laydowns against this type of player. Although, I probably pay off the third time, in case he has learned that popping me on the river might get him the pot.

5 - If he checkraises, I fold, but when he bets out, I pay him off.

6 - You could maybe fold the turn, but I think that you absolutely have to call one more small bet to see if you spike a queen. I would probably play as long as I could for one bet, and as long as a 9 didn't come off, which I suspect the other player is chasing.

7 - Big aces are probably well within this players 3 bet range preflop. I would just check/call all the way to the river. It would cost you one more big bet than playing it the way that you did, and you would get to see a showdown. Seeing as how he has a 2.5 AF, I don't see him checking behind you regardless of what he has. By the way, wouldn't you like to see PT give you a statistic that tells you how often he threebets when he has the opportunity?

8 - If you lost to aces or AJ here, I would have probably found a way to lose at least one more bet.

9 - I might be making a mistake, but I don't fold top pair to anyone with an AF of 3.

10 - Similarly, I try not to call down players with AF's below 1 when there are a lot of hands that beat me.

11 - Just reading all these hands where you have to make these ugly decisions has almost put me on tilt [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. If this really was the 11th hand that I faced an ugly raise in a couple of hours, I would overcall, and after I lost, turn the computer off. At the same time, I do think you are drawing to 2 outs, and quite possibly 1 to a chop here. I think that a fold is probably the best decision.

damaniac · #4 12-18-2005, 02:57 PM

1. So many draws are in now, not many people are bluff-raising a river after so much action. Looks good.
2. Ditto, c/r river is not a worse A very often.
3. More divided, but a flush/deuce are likely holdings, and we have no redraws. I'm tempted to call in case he's semi-bluffing the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4. I really dislike this fold. Dry flop, the guy could bet a lot of hands you beat here. At least call, probably raise.
5. Every draw (spades, T9) or a slowplayed Q beats you, and maybe AJ. I hate folding to a river-donk, but this looks like as good a time as any.
6. I don't like. He could play JJ like this, and maybe TT (more aggressively cuz he has a gutshot too). In any event, if he has AA/KK (6 combos each), QQ (once, tie), and JJ half as often (so 3), we need 5:1 to call down profitably (a little less since we can get extra bets when we spike a Q but we don't lose anymore if he hits a J...actually we could fold then). If he has that, and the other player as a 9, we have about 18% equity, and are getting something like 32:5 to call down, and we can fold a lot of nasty cards and save bets. Call.
7. Looks good. He'll have AK/AQ a decent amount of the time and the pot's big. Q not a good card for you.
8. Maybe call the raise and bet/call the river. I don't like folding but you don't look to be in good shape. Still, maybe he figured your flop donk was a weaker A, not expecting you to donk a J. I dunno.
9. Closer, as you are behind two pair a lot of the time. But sometimes you are behind a straight/set, so I think that swings it to a fold.
10. Yeah that's just a fugly board for your hand. Even though he could be stealing with a busted straight draw or something, most of the time he has an A/K/spades.
11. I feel like you should have put in a raise somewhere. If UTG2's stats are meant for BB, definitely raise the flop, or, failing that, the turn. You should have lost more.

#5 12-18-2005, 05:39 PM

wow i think you are giving to much credit to the villian on most of these..i cant believe on some of these u folded on the river that the pot odds were so good and u layed it down.. you would only have to be right very few time for those plays to be profitable...

damaniac · #6 12-18-2005, 05:52 PM

Look at the hands. Think about them. Look at the game. Look at the player. Consider what hands he is likely to have.

I don't know that all those are right, but river raises and check-raises at 3/6 by TAGs generally are not stone-cold bluffs, nor are they often value-bets that can't beat a pair of aces with an 8 kicker, for example. In any event, think about the situation and analyze it, we are trying to apply thought to poker, not "Me have pair, pot big, me call."

x2ski · #7 12-18-2005, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the responses so far.

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 1: I'm calling that river raise against this particular opponent every time. A guy that aggressive is going to be raising the river with a lot of hands that you beat here...or at the least, getting 11:1 on your call, I think it's safe to assume he's bluffing/raising a worse hand at least 1 in 11 times.

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[ QUOTE ]
Bob T. - 1 - KK, well, I would probably pay off here, but he has played the hand like a flush draw, or even more like a straight draw, maybe he had 98. But I think that the possibility that a player as loose and aggressive as this one had somethinkg like KQ, AQ, or Q9, and decided to take one last shot on the river is good enough that calling down is probably better than folding.

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damaniac - 1. So many draws are in now, not many people are bluff-raising a river after so much action. Looks good.

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Some varied opinions... My fold was mostly based upon damaniac's reasoning. In fact, I think villain hit his flush on the turn and just waited until the river to pop me.

Would it have been a clearer fold had villain popped me on the turn, or would this still have been worthy of a call down?

I based my decision in part from p. 139 in HEPFAP (Important Fourth Street Concepts), although my decision to fold occurred on the river.

Finally, 1.75 is considered aggressive? Aggressive enough to throw down a river bluff-raise? My aggression factor is 2.54 and if our roles were swapped I wouldn't be trying this move on someone who obviously liked their hand enough to bet through the river.

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Harv72b - Hand 2: Good fold. This guy looks pretty passive, and I think it's safe to give him credit for a rivered 2 pair or straight or whatever.

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Bob T. - 2 - This player is slightly loose, and slightly passive postflop. I think his postflop raises are meaningful, and I like the laydowns against this type of player.

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damaniac - 2. Ditto (So many draws are in now, not many people are bluff-raising a river after so much action. Looks good), c/r river is not a worse A very often.

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Good to hear this one is unanimous... I normally pay this off 100% of the time, so I'm glad that's plugged; however, it seems as though the only real difference between this hand and hand #1 is that I was check-raised here as opposed to straight-up raised... Does villain's aggression factor have that much weight in these scenarios?

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 3: Once again, unless he's the extremely rare slight loose/passive player who actually adjusts his gameplay based on yours, a good fold. He's probably not check/raising you without the flush here, and you don't have anywhere near the odds to draw to a 4-outer against that.

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Bob T. - 3 - This player is slightly loose, and slightly passive postflop. I think his postflop raises are meaningful, and I like the laydowns against this type of player.

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damaniac - 3. More divided, but a flush/deuce are likely holdings, and we have no redraws. I'm tempted to call in case he's semi-bluffing the A .

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, semi-unanimous, so that's good... This was a tough one since I kind of turned my money card but, since I was "experimenting", I decided to muck it.

What sucked is that this was the second time in less than two orbits that this punk pulled this on me, but I also didn't want to begin playing sheriff.

damaniac, if you were to call, are you calling a river bet as well if the river's a blank?

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 4: This one I don't like. Even a relatively passive player will make odd moves here like betting out with his A2 or K3 or AQ or what have you. I don't think that his lead on the flop absolutively has to be top pair, and against this opponent, I think you can run a raise/check through line pretty much always.

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[ QUOTE ]
Bob T. - 4 - This player is slightly loose, and slightly passive postflop. I think his postflop raises are meaningful, and I like the laydowns against this type of player. Although, I probably pay off the third time, in case he has learned that popping me on the river might get him the pot.

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damaniac - 4. I really dislike this fold. Dry flop, the guy could bet a lot of hands you beat here. At least call, probably raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I would raise against pretty much any other player, but given our recent history it had seemed as though he was more passive until he actually hit something strong (I'm assuming). As a result, his flop bet felt like he liked his hand, but didn't want to give me a chance to draw out on him if I had overcards.

My gut said "nines", so I folded... Also, am I going to be capable of pushing him off his nines or whatever if overcards were to hit the turn? I think not.

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Harv72b - Hand 5: Good fold. Pretty much every draw that he could've had just came in on the river, and it's hardly outside the realm of possibility that he had the Q all the way.

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Bob T. - 5 - If he checkraises, I fold, but when he bets out, I pay him off.

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damaniac - 5. Every draw (spades, T9) or a slowplayed Q beats you, and maybe AJ. I hate folding to a river-donk, but this looks like as good a time as any.

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Some varied opinions again, but hopefully this was indeed a good fold. This is normally a 100% payoff situation for me, but it just never seems right. A lot of times (ok 100% of the time) I'd also payoff a check-raise, so I'm glad that's confirmed as idiocy.

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Harv72b - Hand 6: Yuck. Way too weak to fold an overpair at this point in the hand, especially since the pot is laying you more than enough odds to try and turn your 2-outer (if that's indeed what you have). Don't try too hard to find "good folds".

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Bob T. - 6 - You could maybe fold the turn, but I think that you absolutely have to call one more small bet to see if you spike a queen. I would probably play as long as I could for one bet, and as long as a 9 didn't come off, which I suspect the other player is chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
damaniac - 6. I don't like. He could play JJ like this, and maybe TT (more aggressively cuz he has a gutshot too). In any event, if he has AA/KK (6 combos each), QQ (once, tie), and JJ half as often (so 3), we need 5:1 to call down profitably (a little less since we can get extra bets when we spike a Q but we don't lose anymore if he hits a J...actually we could fold then). If he has that, and the other player as a 9, we have about 18% equity, and are getting something like 32:5 to call down, and we can fold a lot of nasty cards and save bets. Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so ummmm... This hand was sort of one of my rare attempts to gain information from my opponent. First of all, what is the pre-flop capper capping with (AA-QQ, AKs, AKo... anything else?)?

As far as the capper is concerned, the flop didn't hit him at all if he has overs. Thus, I wanted to know where I stood, so I raised the flop more for information than for value. His 3-bet gave me a strong indication that I was beat and that my flop raise didn't scare him at all (keep in mind that he doesn't know if I would have capped pre-flop, given the opportunity).

In the end, I completely ignored pot odds (getting way more than 22-1 to call and folding like a chump). Nevertheless, if the the turn were to blank, am I still calling this down? Normally I would...

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 7: This one's a little iffy, yes, but probably a good fold based on his likely 3-betting range. Really, the only hand he could reasonably hold that you're ahead of is A K, and the pot isn't big enough to call down on that chance.

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Bob T. - 7 - Big aces are probably well within this players 3 bet range preflop. I would just check/call all the way to the river. It would cost you one more big bet than playing it the way that you did, and you would get to see a showdown. Seeing as how he has a 2.5 AF, I don't see him checking behind you regardless of what he has. By the way, wouldn't you like to see PT give you a statistic that tells you how often he threebets when he has the opportunity?

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damaniac - 7. Looks good. He'll have AK/AQ a decent amount of the time and the pot's big. Q not a good card for you.

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Some differing opinions again. I'm unsure which is best, but I like Bob T.'s suggestion of just calling down; however, then we're allowing MP3 to draw out on us as well. This hand would have played a lot differently had villain not 3-bet the flop, but hopefully I saved some money given this line.

Bob T., yeah it would be nice if PT was capable of a lot of other things, but I don't use it to its full potential as it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 8: There might be a fold on the turn, but it'd take a far better player than me to make it. I pay this one off every time. And franky, I often bet/call the river.

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Bob T. - 8 - If you lost to aces or AJ here, I would have probably found a way to lose at least one more bet.

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damaniac - 8. Maybe call the raise and bet/call the river. I don't like folding but you don't look to be in good shape. Still, maybe he figured your flop donk was a weaker A, not expecting you to donk a J. I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unanimous bet-calling of the river here, and frankly I'm surprised. I thought this was pretty good hand-reading on my part, although I didn't follow through on my logic.

If I were villain, I'd wait to pop the turn with plenty of monsters... when I 3-bet the turn with my trips, it certainly didn't seem to phase him. Given his raising standards, AJ and AA seemed a lot more likely than KJ or QJ from UTG+2 that bet-calling the river didn't seem like the best idea here.

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 9: I'm not too hot on this fold, either--I think villain flopped two pair a pretty big portion of the time, and against every two pair combo except K7 you have enough outs to see the river.

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Bob T. - 9 - I might be making a mistake, but I don't fold top pair to anyone with an AF of 3.

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damaniac - 9. Closer, as you are behind two pair a lot of the time. But sometimes you are behind a straight/set, so I think that swings it to a fold.

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Interesting responses... So if I were to not hit two pair on the river is it check-fold time, or since I made it this far I might as well go to showdown with top pair?

As in hand #8, villain's line indicates an attempt to extract maximum value from his hand... "Well, he 3-bet the flop, so I'll just call and raise the turn to punish this fish."

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b - Hand 10: Good fold. If it's me, though, I choke down the vomit long enough to bet/fold the turn, intending to check through a non-Q river.

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Bob T. - 10 - I try not to call down players with AF's below 1 when there are a lot of hands that beat me.

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damaniac - 10. Yeah that's just a fugly board for your hand. Even though he could be stealing with a busted straight draw or something, most of the time he has an A/K/spades.

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Good to hear... Normally I'm betting this turn as well, but like I said, the board was creeping me out and I went into puss-mode, but I'm glad it wasn't a terrible decision.

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Harv72b - Hand 11: You didn't give a read for BB, but against all but the most passive players I'm raising the flop. As it played out...yeah, probably a good turn fold the second time around.

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Bob T. - 11 - Just reading all these hands where you have to make these ugly decisions has almost put me on tilt . If this really was the 11th hand that I faced an ugly raise in a couple of hours, I would overcall, and after I lost, turn the computer off. At the same time, I do think you are drawing to 2 outs, and quite possibly 1 to a chop here. I think that a fold is probably the best decision.

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damaniac - 11. I feel like you should have put in a raise somewhere. If UTG2's stats are meant for BB, definitely raise the flop, or, failing that, the turn. You should have lost more.

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BB was a 23.5/5/0.7

Regarding my failure to raise somewhere in this hand...my intention was to pop the turn, but something didn't seem right about the board pairing, and I tend to give respect to players in the BB who 3-bet pre-flop, since their position will suck for the remainder of the hand.

Bob T., these situations are common, so I know you wouldn't go on tilt, and given your response, you wouldn't overcall, so quit lying [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

damaniac · #8 12-18-2005, 08:09 PM

WRT #3, yeah that is a fold, I was merely contemplating calling. But I think he has a better hand most of the time and we are drawing dead to most/all of those, so it is a fold.

tolbiny · #9 12-21-2005, 03:48 PM

Hand 1. I folded a hand like that once. That was enough, its out of my system. It sucks getting raised on the river here, you end up losing like 80% of the time. Good thing your getting 11-1. villan will be bluffing a missed KQ or a stupidly played AJ here enough to make calling +ev. This hand illustrates my golden rule : If he's a tard, then folding is just to hard. The worse a player is the easier it is to call down. and yes, 1.75 agression is pretty high for a guy with 41+ vpip.

Hand 2. Your opponent is a lot more reasonable and the fold is more reasonable. It is tough to quantify how often you are good here. BD flush, QT and all kinds of 2 pair got there. I don't hate you for betting or for folding in this one, it is a tough spot.

Hand 3: Top pair good kicker. Nope, not gonna fold. Especially after folding the A8 hand if a bluff worked for him then he is def encouraged to try it again. There are plenty of semibluffing hands out there, and the pot is pretty effing big. He could also be trying to extract value from his weaker Q-especially if he has a heart with it. Call down.

Hand 4:
No. I hate you for folding. That's a bad kitty. Donk bets mean nothing, Nothing! I usually raise right there, bet the turn and check behind on the river.

Hand 5: You don't have a queen, he doesn't have a queen. So he either has a J or a draw- most of which got there. MOST of which got there. You beat a lot of Js and you beat his busted KT draw. Call.

Hand 6: NO. Stop folding overpairs for one sb.

Hand 7: Thisis tough, be he could still be going aggro with AK/AJs or even 77 and 55. Yeah, you lose a lot but your actions have already built a big pot. don't give up that easily. call down. I would check fold the river if a A hit for sure. If a spade hits a similar argument can be made. Your flop c/r was perfect. Perfect.

Hand 8: I am not ever folding that turn. Usually i would c/r that turn, unless i specifically thought he would raise AK/Aq there.

Hand 9: You have plenty of outs against K4, K6 and 46, 47, and are ahead of K5 and K8. call down.

Hand 10: Bet the turn and fold to a s/r if you aren't going to call a river bet. You just gave a weak spade a free card. 1 bet on the turn and you are putting nothing else in.

Hand 11: Raise the flop.

In short you are right- all of these hands you are less than 50% to win, but nearly all of them are bit pots giving you 10-1 or better. Just because there are only a few hands that your opponents can have that are resonable doesn't mean that your opponents are reasonable. Also- the more folds you make, the more pure bluffs actually become good plays.