Fit or Fold? (semi-generalized flop question)

[x2ski]

Hi All,

I was considering posting this under a gimmick account or something 'cause I'm purty dern sure this is a newb question and I am therefore embarrassed to ask it.

Anyway, here I am and here we go:

I'm wondering how much I'm giving up when I hit any piece of a multi-way pot and fold because "I know that I'm beat NOW, on THE FLOP, so why continue?".

I suck at the whole implied/reverse-implied odds thing and thus have resigned myself to just folding, especially if there is two to a flush or three to a straight (or both) on board.

I'm essentially talking about situations in which you hit bottom or middle pair with zero other draws, so basically a 5-outer...

In what situations are we seeing a turn and how many players need to be in in order to do so?

How much does a 2-flush or 3-straight board matter in the decision-making process?

In heads up or 3-way situations I'm often betting out if first-to-act on the flop, but what if someone bets out before me?

Also, I understand and incorporate the concept of flopping a pair, while holding two suited cards, with one of those suits hitting the flop, and raising in late position, blah blah blah.

I'm thinking this may be a ridiculous leak that I've had since, like ever, so any information is greatly appreciated.

Finally, if this is a leak, how much am I giving up? My WTSD and Folded to River Bet percentages are low and high, respectively, to many of you, and I'm looking for ways to get to showdown more often, other than calling down with Ace high lol.

Thanks.

[Bob T.]

Learn how to count your outs, and calculate pot odds.

Go to the microlimits forum. Find Ed Miller's 'Why you guys aren't crushing these microlimit games...' (09/02/02) post. Read it.

Think about pot size and your outs for all of your decisions.

Rinse, and repeat.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Learn how to count your outs, and calculate pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I used to do that, then auto-pilot set in and I now just think "I've been in this situation before, and this is how I play it, evertime, no matter what". The 5-outers got turned off completely, I guess. In fact, I never implemented them. Oh, the negative aspects of instinctual risk-aversion... Wonderful.

[ QUOTE ]
Go to the microlimits forum. Find Ed Miller's 'Why you guys aren't crushing these microlimit games...' (09/02/02) post. Read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read 10+ times... Will read again.

[ QUOTE ]
Think about pot size and your outs for all of your decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone have any solid links to an all-encompassing thread regarding this? (wishful thinking on my part) Sure, the math is out there, but I learn better using reason/logic as opposed to math/statistics.

[Bob T.]

Quote:
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Think about pot size and your outs for all of your decisions.


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Anyone have any solid links to an all-encompassing thread regarding this? (wishful thinking on my part) Sure, the math is out there, but I learn better using reason/logic as opposed to math/statistics.

One thing that I did, is each day, take one hand, do all the math on each street for each player. How many outs they had. What there odds were for each bet, did they make good decisions, and what would have been better decisions, and how big or small would the pot have to be to make their decision a good one?

It should take a little while the first couple of times, and eventually, it should get a lot quicker. But really, I found that just doing this a couple of time made all of my decisions a lot better. I don't do this often anymore, but once you analyze a situation like this, you can work your way around the similar situations that you find at the table.

I would guess that this would get you a better understanding of what you want to know, than reading it from any source.

[x2ski]

Great idea... Thanks man.

[Harv72b]

I got around this question fairly easily: I don't fold.

If you hit the flop and there's a bet to you, the odds are very good that one of the following two scenarios is true:

-you have the proper pot odds to continue with a 5-outer.
-you are in a short-handed pot where bottom pair may well be good, and/or a raise might win you a free card (or get your opponent to fold a better hand).

Really, unless I'm involved in a situation where I have a solid read that the flop bettor will not bet without at least top pair and the pot odds do not justify calling with a 5-outer, or I hit bottom pair, the player to my right bets out on a board very likely to have hit my opponents, and there is a large field behind me (ex: 95o from the BB in a 5-handed, unraised pot, with a flop of Q5A), I can't really think of too many times when I'm folding a flopped pair.

[x2ski]

So I guess this is a leak.

Exciting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

wow, i was about to post the exact same thing x2, good post - may i ask what your WtSD and FTRB is?

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i was about to post the exact same thing x2, good post - may i ask what your WtSD and FTRB is?

[/ QUOTE ]

After my most recent 143,000 hands:

WtSD - 29.19
FtRB - 45.54