Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-22-2005, 01:06 AM
RutgersKev RutgersKev is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4
Default Right line with JJ?

Villian is 19/8/1.3

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Raise the flop? Ir is this the correct line vs. this kinda aggression vs. someone without that high of an aggression rating.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-22-2005, 01:10 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

i don't assume that people bet out with trips. Put him on a medium pair that doesn't want you to hit w/ overs and raise the flop. Most cap w/ QQ+ preflop so your probably good. You miss too much value by just calling down. If he reraises you on the flop and his aggression is really low then you can lay it down but only if you know your opp well enough to be sure that your beat (basically just call down).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-22-2005, 01:18 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

I think you need to raise this flop to find out where you stand. I don't know what raising hands you've seen from villian, but based on his stats and the fact that he is betting out I don't think he is likely to have a 10. You are the aggressor pf, so I would think he would check raise the flop or turn w/3 10's. I say he has something like 88, 99, AK, or QQ. KK and AA, are also possible, but most people will cap pf w/those hands.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-22-2005, 01:49 AM
lighterjobs lighterjobs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 908
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

You need to raise the flop here to find out if he has the overpair/three tens. If he reraises you here he probably has you beat with those stats. I don't see many players with those stats playing AQ/AK like that. so by raising the flop you know where your at for later use in the hand. if he check calls the turn and donk bets the river you might be able to get an extra bet out of 77-99 or maybe even a UI AK.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-22-2005, 04:37 AM
SteveL91 SteveL91 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 368
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

Raising the flop isn't likely to tell you much of anything. Unless the guy is incredibly straightforward, he's just as likely to smooth-call with a better hand and either stop-n-go the turn, or c/r the turn. An extension of this - lack of info if he just calls the flop raise - is that it'll very likely shut down QQ, so you still don't know a damn thing. Sometimes, a passive line is fine and appropriate. It wouldn't necessarily be my default line (I don't really have default lines), but it's one I'll use when I know the villain to be tricky, and/or capable of pushing a worse hand.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-22-2005, 05:46 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Writing \"Small Stakes Hold \'Em\"
Posts: 4,548
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

Presumably you 3-bet preflop because you thought you had the best of it. Now the flop comes down TT2 rainbow and you get a peculiar donk-bet (not exactly the biggest sign of strength). You should raise.

This is not a way ahead or way behind hand. It's likely you have the best hand, and it's also likely that you'll get at least one raise called. Expect a weaker pocket pair, ace-high, a bluff, or whatever far more often than a ten or a monster. You need to put some more action in.

EDIT: BTW, I'm not comfortable with these responses telling you to raise to find out where you're at. You should raise because you are still likely to have far the best of it, and you gotta get value for your hands to punish weak donk-bets.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-22-2005, 05:52 AM
BoxLiquid BoxLiquid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

After reading all the posts it sounds very logical that he doesn't have the ten. I personally raise that flop to see where I stand.

Hi ED. Nice tax article.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:26 AM
RutgersKev RutgersKev is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

Ok, I agree raising the flop is the best play. He had AQ, I won the hand, I didn't post this hand cause it was a bad beat, I posted it because I was unsure on the line.

Now, <u>knowing</u> that he doesn't have me beat (which is why all the posters are saying raise), and assuming he will call your raise, check-call your turn bet but check- fold the river if he doesn't improve, is it still better to raise?

Your making him pay to see the cards but you'll lose .5 BBs compared to my original line by taking control of the hand. Also, if he does have me beat he will probably 3 bet and I'll prob. call the turn bet and fold the river if I don't improve.

Looking at it this way if I raise and he doesn't have me beat I "lose" .5 BBs over the original line. And if he does have me beat I will lose the same amount as if I called him down on every street.

Of course, this whole assumption is based on the fact he will fold the river if not improved. (Say you know this from playing 500 hands with him)

Just a hypothetical
Kevin

Note: I'm not normally a passive player, I have a 2.9 aggression rating.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:33 AM
lighterjobs lighterjobs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 908
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I'm not comfortable with these responses telling you to raise to find out where you're at. You should raise because you are still likely to have far the best of it, and you gotta get value for your hands to punish weak donk-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't necessarily saying that we should raise the flop only to find out where we are in the hand, but to be able to get in as many bets as are appropriate in this spot.

what if we get reraised on the flop? what would be a good line here? call down?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-22-2005, 04:35 PM
SteveL91 SteveL91 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 368
Default Re: Right line with JJ?

[ QUOTE ]

what if we get reraised on the flop? what would be a good line here? call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, call down. The board isn't all that scary, thus making it quite possible someone is overplaying a small-mid pocket pair. If I'm playing this hand from the villain's perspective from the flop on with, say, 88 I'd probably look to 3-bet a flop raise simply because most players tend to wait for the turn to raise with big pairs. On a board this dry, a flop raise is quite often UI overcards trying to push you off a hand, in my experience.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.