Top-pair, good kickeer meets some resistance, now what?

BigBaitsim (milo) · #1 06-18-2005, 06:35 PM

Table is super-good. Two complete idiot uber LAGs, three bad players, three decent players who are playing way too many hands because of the uber LAGS and three decent players.

I have QTo on the button. UTG calls, as do three others to Uber-LAG who raises about 50% of hands, including this one. Three cold call, and with 13SB in the pot, I call.

Flop is a magical rainbow of disconnected cards, T-high. I bet out, LAG #1 raises, Uber-LAG reraises. Three fold and it's to me, so I...

toss · #2 06-18-2005, 06:39 PM

Clap it!

chesspain · #3 06-18-2005, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a magical rainbow of disconnected cards, T-high. I bet out, LAG #1 raises, Uber-LAG reraises. Three fold and it's to me, so I...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much why I wouldn't want to coldcall with QTo, especially against this crowd.

toss · #4 06-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Actually I think I'd just call and donk along.

Piiop · #5 06-18-2005, 07:17 PM

I also wouldn't call with QTo, but since you did. I'd cap it. I think capping it now will make your later decisions a lot easier and should help force out overcards or gutshots that you want out.

Also, were you on the button or in the blind? And how many people were still in on the flop after the 3-bet?

beset7 · #6 06-18-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't call with QTo, but since you did. I'd cap it. I think capping it now will make your later decisions a lot easier and should help force out overcards or gutshots that you want out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised so many people are saying they wouldn't cold-call with QTo under these table conditions. Could someone justify this for me? Seems risk-averse and weak tight to me. I WANT to be playing pots with these guys. I think the table conditions as described are perfect for this.

I agree that capping it is the way to go and will making playing 4th and 5th easier.

Piiop · #7 06-18-2005, 07:47 PM

Heh, ok there have actually only been 2 people who said they'd fold. Sure, you want to play against the maniacs, but in a giant, multiway pot QTo is garbage..Weak top pair, weak kicker, only semi-connected, and a reverse implied odds nightmare. I'd rather have Q8s than QTo.

damaniac · #8 06-18-2005, 08:12 PM

You certainly want to be playing in pots with these guys but you want hands that, among other attributes:

Have showdown value. I love (well not love, but I have no problem doing it) taking A high or a small pair to showdown against a mega-lag. Q high = not going to cut it.

You still need a hand, especially since this is going to showdown. Even when your QTo makes top pair, it will often get drawn out on. What's more, when you do have a marginal hand (something like middle pair, or even top pair on a coordinated board) it becomes very difficult to figure out when to slow down. You risk either spewing chips or missing bets. Unless they never refrain from betting/raising, these hands become difficult not so much to win since you are going to showdown but to win the most when you are ahead and lose the least when behind.

QTo just ain't enough of a hand, especially multiway, when the other players will also make hands. You just can't withstand a whole lot of people in the pot unless you make your miracle straight. The flush and set/boat possibilities brought on by suited cards and pocket pairs make this much more appealing, not only because those hands will usually win, but when you have the best hand it will be easy to recognize and so you can put all your money in with the best of it. A weak top or middle pair isn't nearly as strong.

Redd · #9 06-18-2005, 08:49 PM

This hand is a good example of why IMHO QTo is, in general, very overrated.

RiverStyx · #10 06-18-2005, 09:23 PM

"Flop is ... T-high. I bet out, LAG #1 raises, Uber-LAG reraises. "

So on the flop: LAG #1 check-raised you and LAG #2 check re-raised?

If the pot is now 3-way with you and LAGs, then there is a good chance you have the best hand and you should cap it.

If multiple people have 1 sb in the pot and you can protect your hand and potentially get it 3-way by capping it, cap it.

If this is a huge multi-way pot where a lot of other people are coming along for the ride then you might fold or call or cap depending on who is in and how they play.

Generally you want the flop to hit you hard w/ your offsuit broadway cards here as you could be dominated by a lot of hands that many people would cold call here. There is also a chance that one of the LAGs may have picked up a hand like AT, KT, JJ, etc. that might make this one sting. But hey, that's why QTo sucks, you knew that going in to it, so ideally, if you show this down, it should be against only the LAGs, which likely gives you better than average chances of winning.