Contious Blackjack shuffler beatable?

[joshman1204]

I have heard lots of horror stories about indian casinos and the low fines assesed for cheating.

[Iceman]

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I have heard lots of horror stories about indian casinos and the low fines assesed for cheating.

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You also have to be very careful anytime you play blackjack on a cruise ship or Caribbean island. Removing a relatively small number of face cards from a huge shoe would be virtually undetectable and would vastly increase the odds against the player.

[Iceman]

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you are assuming it is completly random but as far as I know there is no information to support the "completly random" statement. These shufflers are machines and it is nearly impossible for a mechanical device to achieve truely random outcomes.

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While a machine shuffle can't be perfectly random, it can get much closer to random than a human shuffle.

[joshman1204]

I agree that it can get closer but I still think that these machines would have a detectable pattern in the way they shuffle. This could just be due to my ignorance about the way these machines work but I just think that someone that had access to one of these machines and had the right skill set could probably find some way to beat it.

[Iceman]

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I agree that it can get closer but I still think that these machines would have a detectable pattern in the way they shuffle. This could just be due to my ignorance about the way these machines work but I just think that someone that had access to one of these machines and had the right skill set could probably find some way to beat it.

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A poorly designed shuffling machine would definitely be beatable, but it wouldn't be difficult for a manufacturer to include enough randomizing factors to make it completely untrackable in practice. For example, you could use a 32-bit random number to decide how high in the deck to start the first shuffle, or have two different four-deck shoes and deal one round from one while the other shuffles continuously, then switch.

[TacoVendor]

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I agree that it can get closer but I still think that these machines would have a detectable pattern in the way they shuffle. This could just be due to my ignorance about the way these machines work but I just think that someone that had access to one of these machines and had the right skill set could probably find some way to beat it.

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If you were to just keep the decks of cards in the shoe that is continually shuffling then yes, there is likely a way to track cards from an individual shoe. Electronics exist very cheaply that can attempt to randomize the order in which parts move, but even in components from the assembly line one-after-another, they will 'randomize' slightly differently.

So, take into account that given one continually shuffling shoe, you have a good chance to predict card order. But you must take other factors into account... first cards are dealt, good chance that with a given shoe and the right determining factors that you can figure out what cards are what. Anywhere from 2-8 hands are dealt based on people at the table and the cards are taken from the shoe at a specific time. Now you must account for the random time that the cards are out of the shoe while the hands are being played, the spacing in which they are placed back into the continually shuffling shoe, and then you have to count time based on when the next cards are dealt. Repeat just a few times and the randomness is now derived from the point in the process that will be most random, the time cards are away from the shoe.

Seems pretty secure taking the whole concept of the game into account. If control over the time the cards were away from a shoe and then number of cards taken out each time then you might be able to compromise one specific machine, but the slight diversities of the timing components between each device that is working at a very high rate of speed will just about trash and chance of your findings from device #1 from working on device #2.

[joshman1204]

Both of the above posts present some great points that I had overlooked.

So does anyone believe these machines will ever be compromised in their current state?

[CORed]

Its easy to get +EV against a continuous shuffler, provided you can see the dealer's hole card.