I hate hands like this. AQo misses the board vs. turn raise

Knoler · #1 01-21-2005, 06:51 PM

This has happened to me so many times since I've moved to 2/4 in the last week or so. It drives me nuts every time, and I feel like a total fish. I raise with a quality hand, miss the flop, bet the flop, thin the field to one, bet the turn, and inevitably get raised or check raised. Then I feel like a doofus. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyhow, villain just posted, so no read on him. Does anyone play this kind of hand differently? On the turn I figured myself for a likely 7 outs, but maybe I should have discounted that more and folded to the raise?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Superman is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
6 folds, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, Superman raises, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Superman bets, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Superman bets, CO raises, Superman calls.

River: (8 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Superman checks, CO bets, Superman folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Regards,
-Brian

MoreWineII · #2 01-21-2005, 07:05 PM

I've been getting a lot of these PITA hands too lately. I think you did fine.

Nick C · #3 01-21-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise with a quality hand, miss the flop, bet the flop, thin the field to one, bet the turn, and inevitably get raised or check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happens to me a lot too.

wuarhg · #4 01-21-2005, 07:11 PM

Same here, pretty frustrating at times.

sweetjazz · #5 01-21-2005, 07:35 PM

Does anyone consider calling down on the river? Obviously, you're likely badly behind, but I'm always suspicious when there's a turn raise on a blank that does nothing but put a four-flush on board.

I don't think a call is right here, but largely because the poster could have a wide range of hands and might easily have a weak king, 2 pair or a set or be semibluffing with Kcxc or even 8cxc. You're not good here 10% of the time imho.

But there are similar boards where you might be good 10% of the time. And if your hand is good enough to see the river card b/c of extra outs (e.g. gutshot) and can beat a total bluff (A high), how often do you consider showing down the river? I would strongly consider it if CO had limped in instead of posting (where his only likely made hands are KJ, 88 or 22 or possibly a single K). Without a read, this is probably more marginal. If I have seen a lot of aggression so far, I usually will make the final crying call, expecting to look real stupid at least 50% of the time, but also of winning a little more than 10% of the time.

Anyone else think like this? Or is this probably a small leak of mine?

detruncate · #6 01-21-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Same here, pretty frustrating at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when you've been getting good starters and whiffing a lot.

I've been thinking a lot about how much adjustment you should make based on table image. You begin to suspect after a while that even pretty unobservant players are taking shots at you, but your options are limited.

Pushing back against a player who will undoubtedly call down with any pair seems ridiculous, and calling a smallish pot on the assumption that your A-high might be good necessitates a river call unless a particularly scary card comes down.

Hopefully a few timely 3-bets/river raises with a solid hand keeps this to a minimum. Hands like this one also allow us to at least see the river. I'd check/call an A or Q and check/raise our straight. Since we're here, it might also make sense to call unimproved every now and again... but I have a lot of trouble believing that we're good anywhere near often enough, and I'm not convinced that it'll have a significant deterrant effect.

MoreWineII · #7 01-21-2005, 08:00 PM

No, I think you're right that there are times to call with ace-high and that's something that I need to start doing more often.

If nothing else, it may make other players less likely to take bluff shots at you whenever you check a river.

I've been check/calling some rivers with middle pair or top pair not-so-great kicker lately rather than value-betting too for that same reason.

I've seen an unusual amount of river total or semi-bluffs lately so I guess it's time to adjust.

DonkeyKong · #8 01-21-2005, 08:11 PM

since out of position here in the SB, why not just complete the blind and check-raise if A or Q flops... or check-raise if the board looks really bleak like 9 9 2 for a bluff.

But pre-flop raising is fine too. But clearly your opponent is saying 'I can beat AK' with his turn raise. You raised pre-flop indicating AK as a strong possibility. This guy has shown no fear to your aggression. you are probably drawing dead here vs KJ or K8 or a set...

I hate hands like this... you may be dead to an Ace (3 outs) and you may be dead to runner runner (Ace Ace or Ace Queen).

This is why I like only putting 1/2 a bet in here and then check-raising the flop to make up for the lost money pre-flop... Playing out of position sucks.

wuwei · #9 01-21-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
since out of position here in the SB, why not just complete the blind and check-raise if A or Q flops...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to admit to doing this a fair amount, which I'm sure will cause gasps from many of the folks around here. Depending on table texture, number of people in the pot, etc, I'll often complete with AQo in the sb. Playing AQ out of postion when you miss the flop sucks.

That being said, this is a horrible place to do that. There are 0 people who have voluntarily put $ in the pot so far, you have to raise here and force them to pay if they want to stick around. You then take the initiative and go from there.

colgin · #10 01-21-2005, 08:27 PM

I fold to the turn raise here.