Weird $215 hand

[durron597]

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Fold, I put UTG on A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the BB on A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

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nh

Black aces and Q9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Woot woot. What I meant is that UTG played his hand exactly like he had aces w/o the ace of hearts, and the BB played like he had a flush draw and the 9 of hearts. Even though your flush draw is better with what he actually had, that's still two hearts gone out of the deck, though of course you have the gutshot outs too. Still not worth it here IMO.

In this case with the preflop action I think UTG is too likely to be trying to slow play aces you should take the free card since you don't want to face a check-raise with your hand. Though of course I'm not convinced he has aces until you actually get checkraised, but I'm very wary of a UTG minraise.

[Daliman]

Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

[hansarnic]

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Anyway, interesting discussion. Curtains (& you?) clearly believe that betting is a major mistake here based on the % of the time I get re-raised. I just don’t see it happening that often with a drawy board and 7 to the flop so that's why I think it’s probably a small mistake at worst rather than a big one.

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Not even. It's really the number of times you get called with 6 others in (pretty much around 100%, give or take) coupled with the times you have a tough decision on the turn (around 75%, give or take.) Oh, and you're spending 1/5 of your stack on this bet so if you get called by more than one person, you're almost pot committed already. You don't have the room to make this bet.

edit: Incidentally, UTG may be a moron but BB played his hand perfectly.

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Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on the % of time I win it with the flop bet. I mean what hand is calling the initial PF raise, not betting the flop but calling 180 OOP? A big draw / combination hand is all. 2 pair or a set bet this flop virtually every time.

I agree I make life complicated for myself when I get called, which is actually the main reason not to bet it I think. But I do get to stack someone more easily when I play it this way so there are benefits and I also believe it may get me to the river for 180 where I won't get there for that if I check.

Anyway, no big deal, I agree with you that betting's probably not best, just don't believe that in this particular case with this board it's nearly as bad as it normally would be.

On the subject of BB's play I don't like the small raise here at all. It commits him, but not me.

Think about what happens if I call & the turn misses him. He has 500 back, the pot's at 1100 and he has a crappy draw OOP. He has to consider that he's most probably behind with 12 or maybe as few as 8 outs and no chance of me folding. What do you do now? Pushing is EV-, check-calling all-in is EV-. You have to fold, except you can't because I could be playing a draw (which he gave me odds to do) so assuming I didn't make a pair on the turn >9 he would now be folding the winner. So he really has no idea where he is and has made his life unecessarily difficult.

It's not a good play.

And yeah, we agree, UTG is a moreon.

[hansarnic]

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Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

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Interesting. Why fold PF?

[adanthar]

I just don't think this kind of board hasn't hit anyone. There are *6* others in; there's a passive QT, KJ, JT, somebody's J9s that missed a CR, etc. in there somewhere. They're not supposed to check/call now but they do anyway. But you're right, if I thought this would get me a turn freebie I'd do it far more often - it's the flop CR's that you kinda have to know are coming half the time that really suck here and why I check.

The BB...well, what does he put you on? I think your range right now is AJ-QJ, maybe J9, but the way you are betting out you're gonna have a jack very often (especially since he has Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which means Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] isn't out, another flush draw probably doesn't bet this, etc.) or maybe a set, but that's irrelevant since if you have a set the chips are going in. He has 14 outs against those (12 if you have QJ or J9) and the scare equity against a jack twice. What's he gonna do instead, check/call the flop and invite KJ in MP to call behind, or push now which just looks really weird?

edit: Betting the flop into 6 people is a really good idea if you know for sure UTG will raise and a really bad one if you get 4 calls out of it. In a game where 6 people called a minraise, well, you know.

[DonButtons]

I know adanthar is quite a lag, because everytime I limp, he always limps behind me, I guess he wants to bust me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. But Ill echo a couple people here, the best play is prob. to fold preflop as your post flop skills early in a $215 dont seem that great. Since you called the preflop bet (which isn't that bad if you touch up your post flop play), this is a definite check behind situation, no question. I mean 6 people in the pot, you cant ask for a free turn, IMO.

Now, since it turned all fishy, do what all donkeys do.

[Unarmed]

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edit: Betting the flop into 6 people is a really good idea if you know for sure UTG will raise and a really bad one if you get 4 calls out of it. In a game where 6 people called a minraise, well, you know.

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I'd say its great if you get 3+ calls from it and great if you get raised. It sucks when you get 1 caller though...
Anyway, back to the BB. I think he really has to be this flop. Most players will put him junk or a monster. Those that put him on junk are raising their J. Those that put him on a monster can be swatted off on the turn.

Betting the flop and getting called is far better than C/Ring less than pot and ending up with a massive pot OOP on the turn.

IMO of course. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thoughts?

[adanthar]

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I know adanthar is quite a lag, because everytime I limp, he always limps behind me, I guess he wants to bust me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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Actually, usually, I just want 4 more people to limp behind the two of us so I can hit a set. I know you're not paying me off enough on your own [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

4 calls brings up that same situation where you're either check/folding or pushing and they both suck and God that pot is so big but when QJ calls anyway I'm gonna feel dumb.

I think CR'ing is gonna at least make QJ fold. Maybe. I guess the most +EV move in this whole hand is to find that table again and never leave.

[Daliman]

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Fold PF. EVERY time.

Flop bet is not terrible, but likely not taking down the pot 6 handed.

Calling after the allins is not a good idea, but not the worst idea in the world either. You would be calling 805 for an estimated 40% shot at ~2200 chips, equaling about 1200 chips total equity. At first glance, it seems to be a pretty easy fold, but for a 50% implied overlay on my $$$, I'm compelled to call and live with the results.

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Interesting. Why fold PF?

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\Because you are more often going to hit your pair than your flush, and if you are limping in with this in early stages, you likely do not posess the self-control to fold it properly.

[kyro]

That seems like a bold, unsubstantiated statement.