Pai Gow Poker

PokerCat69 · #1 10-04-2005, 10:02 PM

Can Pai Gow poker be beaten in places that allow you to be the banker but use the 5%commission rule?

bholdr · #2 10-05-2005, 01:13 AM

here- wizzard of odds

the fact that any casino even spreads it means that it has a house edge that cannot be beaten.

MCS · #3 10-05-2005, 02:32 AM

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the fact that any casino even spreads it means that it has a house edge that cannot be beaten.

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I guess you've never heard of blackjack, video poker, sports betting, or poker?

Anyway, the answer is yes, but certain conditions have to apply, mainly that you have to be banking a LOT of action relative to your non-bank bets and you have to have a big bankroll.

Photoc · #4 10-05-2005, 05:57 AM

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I guess you've never heard of blackjack, video poker, sports betting, or poker?

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I can understand the first 3, but why on earth would you lump "poker" in with other games that you play AGAINST the house? Poker is player vs player. You are NEVER going to beat the house. They get rake every hand and you lose to the rake. Albeit a small amount, but you still lose a little bit to the rake. Guess what, rake can't be beaten, but other players can be. But it doesn't deserve to be lumped with the other games.

MCS · #5 10-05-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess you've never heard of blackjack, video poker, sports betting, or poker?

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I can understand the first 3, but why on earth would you lump "poker" in with other games that you play AGAINST the house?

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Because the casino still spreads it. Also just cause we're on a poker site, so I thought it was funny. The first two are plenty sufficient to make the point.

PokerCat69 · #6 10-05-2005, 08:10 PM

Do you know off hand how much more money the other players need to be betting (relative to your 'player' bet) to provide an edge?

I saw a game the other day in which 4 players seated at a $10/$500 table were all betting GreenChips. One of them betting $25, the other three betting between $50-75.

Photoc · #7 10-06-2005, 01:05 AM

The only strategy at Pai Gow is to bank and hope that the players bet as much as possible against you as you still have an advantage over each hand. Also, play house way whenever possible unless you somehow know the contents of the players hand.

As an example, I was playing one time and I had banked. One guy played against me and bet more than I had banked against the house. He got all excited and says "i have a straight but no top, this will be a push."

I looked at my cards and found KK222A5. Needless to say, I played the A5 up front and the full house in the back. He didn't even know what hit him. I also won against the house as they had no pairs.

lastsamurai · #8 10-06-2005, 05:09 AM

If you play Paigow Poker at all the california non indian reservation casions (Commerce/bike/Hustler/ ect) they give you the option to bank against the other players w/o the %5 juice. You just have to pay $2 collection. YOU dont play against the house you play against the corporation banker (who is an independent contractor from the casinos) Easy money! The only difference is that they have JOKERS NON wild. If anybody needs a copy of the optimal Jokers non wild PM me.

Terry · #9 10-06-2005, 06:30 AM

Have YOU (not a friend of your girlfriend’s hairdresser’s boyfriend) ever actually had a winning session against one of those corporations in the California Indian casinos? I thought not.

But yes, a square game can be beaten. House Way is not necessarily the Best Way. Finding a game where you can get big enough action is part of the hard part ... and then the swings and bankroll requirement will be huge.

Finding a dealer who is new to the game can add a bet or so per hour to your win rate ... I leave figuring out how to you. Finding players who tell/show you their hands while you are banking is ... uh ... not as common as it used to be but still worth quite a bit when you can find them. Years ago when the game first hit Vegas the Maxim had the tables jammed between mirrored pillars ... boy do I miss those games.

Wong and Caro have both published reasonably accurate strategies. John Gwynn did the definitive work on the game but I don’t think he ever actually published it before he died ... could be wrong on that, though, but my copy was done on a dot matrix printer ... and is most definitely not for sale.

Double Down · #10 10-06-2005, 07:30 AM

I used to work for the corporation at the Cali casinos. Yes, the game can be beaten. To answer your question, you need to get at least 10X the action when you bank than when you bet. When you bet, bet the minimum and only do it to reserve your spot (at the casinos, you have to play the hand before your turn if you wish to bank the next hand). Each casino has their own rules as far as how many times one can bank during one orbit, but usually it's 6 hands. Go with a friend and have him get a seat and have him bank 6 hands as well. This is done because players shaare their banks with others in return for getting to be in their banks. With you and your friend sitting in 2 of the 7 seats, you could definitely get your money in almost every bank.
Above and beyond house way is a very very complicated strategy called optimal. It took me months to learn, but it increases your advantage from 1.35% going house way to 1.85% (and therefore decreases your disadvantage to -.85% when you are the "player"). I believe you can find this optimal strategy in Wong's pai gow book.
And never buy action. The corporations usually sell action $5 for $100 and of course it's a bad deal. It's how we make most of our money, especially on the high roller tables upstairs where they buy $1800 per spot for $60 a pop.
Be warned, the swings are HUGE! As the corp, we are always playing with the advantage, and still, it happened where we had a losing streak 3 months long! You need a humongous bankroll to take on this game, I really don't know how much it would take. In any 8 hour shift on the $10 tables, I could win or lose as much as 3-4K, on the quarter tables up to 15K, and upstairs on the $50, I've won and lost over $100K in 2 hours! It's pretty nauseating, even when it's not your own money. I really wouldn't recommend pai-gow as a realistic way to make $, but if you are looking for a fun gambling game that you could play with a small advantage long term, then it might be good.
Hope this is helpful and good luck!