That guy that folded JJ against Raymer

[Tharpab]

[ QUOTE ]

This statement is WAY off.


[/ QUOTE ]

bullsh*t, had Gus Hansen put you all-in with that hand everybody would be saying how ballsy he is and how he doesnt let anyone run over him, in fact I`m 100% he would he AT LEAST called

[Sephus]

and now you can tell your grandkids that the 2004 main event champ said you were a bad player.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Sorry, but your statements are clueless or misworded.

IF you had said that folding JJ was one option, but taking a stand another reasonable option, that would be one thing. However, you seem to be saying that folding the JJ there is clearly 100% wrong, and the only play is to call or even reraise. Simply put, this is dead wrong. And if that's not what you're saying, then work on your phrasing, because that IS what your words say.

What range of hands do you put a "bully" on when he raises, gets called, gets reraised, and then rereraises, i.e., puts in the third raise preflop? Now, make it an unknown player whom you've been told is a bully, but who has lots of chips and has survived over 2000 players in the biggest tournament of the year. What range of hands do you put him on now? What kind if edge does JJ have against that range? In my mind, it's edge is negative. Apparently not so in your mind. However, I think that you just don't have enough knowledge or experience about these situations, so you're assigning the wrong range of hands to me here. Or, you're just grasping at the hope that JJ isn't beaten in this spot, and taking it too far.

And why add words like "bullsh*t" to the post. They don't add weight to your argument, but just make you like like a bull-headed moron. I don't mean to say that's what you are, but that is the image you are projecting with these posts.

Sorry again if I've offended, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[TomCollins]

This post is another reason I really really hope Greg repeats sas WSOP Champ.

[Tharpab]

What a bunch of sh*t greg, he had WAY more than enough implied odds for spiking a set, WAY more, ESPECIALLY against a player who he`s been told to be betting with trash, he knew you had a hand and would bet the flop, I bet anyday of the week, and twice on sundays, ANY agressive `name` player would have called and tried to spike a set, beside there was ALREADY a lot of $$ on the pot anyway

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
What a bunch of sh*t greg, he had WAY more than enough implied odds for spiking a set, WAY more, ESPECIALLY against a player who he`s been told to be betting with trash, he knew you had a hand and would bet the flop, I bet anyday of the week, and twice on sundays, ANY agressive `name` player would have called and tried to spike a set, beside there was ALREADY a lot of $$ on the pot anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but you are clueless. You could be having this argumetn with Greg Raymer or Greg Brady and i'd still say you are clueless.

If you think pushing all-in with JJ facing a raise and a re-raise is as simple as 1,2,3 and relative to having a big old sack when there's a 5 million dollar prize being played for that you've outlasted over 2500 people to be in the running for, you've got a lot more to think about my friend. Probably more than the length of that sentence was, to be honest.

[TriGonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
and now you can tell your grandkids that the 2004 main event champ said you were a bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

and a moron.

[TomCollins]

What flop do you want to see here? Has to have a jack for you to be too happy.

After a raise and reraise, there are exactly 4 hands you can put Raymer on, all of which are a huge favorite or small dog to JJ. This isn't Party Poker $5 where people will play the same way with 33 or even 99.

[citanul]

Hi,
I'm amongst the many who believe you to be wrong.

I'm not going to stoop to the name calling that you're using, and would ask that you please, if you're going to continue to argue this or any other point, lay off the "bullsh*t" and other such, it does indeed make you look silly. If you believe that you have a point to argue, phrase it intelligently and without insult, and maybe people will converse with you in a kind manner.

For some reason, Greg is being incredibly nice to you here. Stop trying to belittle or berate him, perhaps think about what he says, and if you disagree, say why.

I don't remember the actual action on the hand perfectly, ie, the exact stack sizes or the bet sizes.

However: What Greg and everyone else has been saying is true. Even bullies have hands occasionally. Seeing as how you're apparently a Gus fan, you probably watched the PSI event. Notice that often the hands he takes down people with are ones where they come at him and he DOES have a hand. That's the way it is with bullying. That the other players have told him that Greg was bullying does not mean that they said "he's been betting the flop blind with all sorts of trash, is easilly trapped for all his chips, etc," as you seem to imply. I'm pretty sure that Greg's final raise on that hand was about 1/4 or 1/5 the size of all of John's chips, and about 1/3 of Greg's remaining chips.

As has been pointed out, it is very unlikely that John is ahead at this point in time in the hand, since a player who has survived to that point with a large number of chips has just put in the third raise.

The argument that the implied odds are clearly there means that you think that John could, if he has a better hand, get quite possibly more chips from Greg, when John hits his hand, than Greg has. (I'm pretty confident that's the degree of wrongness you are on this.) And of course, if John does not hit a Jack on the flop, he's gone. There's no way he can continue.

If a name player had pushed all in OR called at this point, I'm pretty sure that the discussion would be about how that's a pretty crazy play, not how ballsy it was.

Now, in the final case, I think. Let's say that Greg in fact HAD trash, and John calls. And then the flop comes blah blah blah. And then Greg throws out a bet, because well, he's insane, or so you suppose. Now, John raises, because he's a perfect player and knows that Greg both has crap AND missed the board. Does your belief in Greg's insanity also make it so that you believe that he would call a raise with crap on the flop?

This bores me for now, and I don't like to make extra long posts.

Please think before you continue your argument.

And Greg, good to see you posting more even though very busy I'm sure. I wish we'd see more strategy and less having to respond to this stuff.

citanul

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
After a raise and reraise, there are exactly 4 hands you can put Raymer on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're analysis isn't that good either. I assume AA, KK, QQ, and AKs are the four hands you're talking about.

We all already know Greg can go as far down as T8o.