One for Trix, Nate, Ace-high steal.

[Joe Tall]

In Nate's recent "Too Tight" thread he mentioned something about liking 98s over Ax in steal situations. Trix also asked if I could post an Ace-high hand after making a quick comment to Nate. Here is such a hand.

Opponent in this hand has yet to fold a BB in 57 hands as he plays 70% of them, likes to bluff on raggy boards and raises preflop a lot w/marginal holdings. You know, a typical HUSH poster.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Joe Tall is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Joe Tall checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Joe Tall checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

River: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Joe Tall checks, BB checks.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Nate tha' Great]

I think I like it. You have very little folding equity on this flop and you have enough hand that you'd like to show it down, but not to have to pay a lot of bets to do it.

The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[imitation]

I don't see what's special about this hand....

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying he didn't get in enough bets with A hi here, or are you saying that calling might be a mistake on the river?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying he didn't get in enough bets with A hi here, or are you saying that calling might be a mistake on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, both really.

I think if you bet out on this flop and he raises, and you call and also check-call the turn, that he's more likely to bet the river with a worse hand since he might think that you have some sort of draw and would fold if you didn't improve, or would just let the momentum of the hand carry his decision without really thinking much about it at all. Joe's line here basically says "we're seeing a showdown" which makes it more likely that the opponent is only going to bet if its for value. OTOH if we're check-folding the river then that undermines the whole point of the play to begin with, except against a player we know very well who absolutely wouldn't bet the river with a worse hand.

There's also a secondary point about it usually being best to avoid choppy, discontinuous actions against generally unskilled opponents. When you check this flop when he isn't expecting you to, I think that wakes him up and makes him somewhat more likely to make better, thinking decisions.

[Joe Tall]

The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

Nate,

I think you are neglecting the times he checks though with a better hand which is going to happen often given the action.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

I don't see what's special about this hand....

Could you post some hands where you raise on a steal and then check the flop, turn, and river unimproved intending to showdown?

Thanks,
Joe Tall

[Trix]

I like it.

Usually I bet the flop, bet the turn and end up check-calling the river on these.

Gonna try this out, people are taking shots at me quite often as it is, so this will probably be pretty sweet.


Regarding the 98s vs A6o, I thought you talking about on the button. I still like the suited connecter better there and think it has higher EV for most players. Things are different though when out of position as your cant take a free card when you need it and your opponent is more likely to play past the flop as he has position and you opened from a later spot.

[Joe Tall]

Regarding the 98s vs A6o, I thought you talking about on the button

Nate was and I was, yes. But a steal is a steal.

I still like the suited connecter better there and think it has higher EV for most players

It's easier to play for most players, that I can agree with. However, given a steal situation, I'll take Ax anyday over a suited connector and twice on Tuesday.

Things are different though when out of position as your cant take a free card when you need it and your opponent is more likely to play past the flop as he has position and you opened from a later spot.

Who said I don't call this flop on the button, call the turn and river bet unimproved given the same board? I likely do. I still tried to steal, it didn't work but my hand is worthy of a showdown on a board that is bluffable by such an opponent. In addition, if I am behind, I have a likely 7 outs.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Trix]

So you bet and call down if check-raised, had you been on the button ?

98s is worth more 3-handed on the button than A6o according to pokerroom and according to TH sims as far as I remember. It´s also worth more in my pokertracker and many others, I dont play Ax very well though.