($22) JJ with earlier raiser

#1 11-10-2005, 12:26 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t1480)
BB (t657)
UTG (t1540)
MP (t1375)
CO (t2133)
Button (t815)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to t150, 2 folds, Hero raises to t600, 1 fold, MP calls t450.

Flop: (t1250) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t200, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1450

kl678 has VPiP of nearly 50% and 20%+ PFR. I reraised him by a large amount to make sure he wouldn't call with Ax/Kx junk. Was this reraise correct? Too much? Not enough?

Should I have folded to his small bet?

bones · #2 11-10-2005, 12:29 AM

I'm gonna give you a universal tip that will apply to just about every hand you ever play, not just this one.

Don't stick half of your stack in preflop then check/fold. Play it any other way than this.

#3 11-10-2005, 12:50 AM

This maybe certainly a fold it seems to me.

Femto · #4 11-10-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
maybe certainly

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf

...

anyway, against this opponent i'd have just pushed, but since you raised and he called you have to bet the flop. if you were him wouldn't you bet this flop if checked to regardless of your cards? you LOOK like you flopped an underpair. Oh wait, you did...

#5 11-10-2005, 01:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe certainly

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf

...

anyway, against this opponent i'd have just pushed, but since you raised and he called you have to bet the flop. if you were him wouldn't you bet this flop if checked to regardless of your cards? you LOOK like you flopped an underpair. Oh wait, you did...

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I was not clear with my description on that you will my apology but I still think that almost every time I play this as a fold. Hoping this makes sense now.

DDH · #6 11-10-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't stick half of your stack in preflop then check/fold. Play it any other way than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
anyway, against this opponent i'd have just pushed, but since you raised and he called you have to bet the flop. if you were him wouldn't you bet this flop if checked to regardless of your cards? you LOOK like you flopped an underpair. Oh wait, you did...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with both of those. You bet half of your stack pre-flop, and you're out of posistion. You've pretty much committed yourself to any flop. The bet he makes doesn't mean he has an Ace or King, it also means he know you don't have one. I think, playing it the way you did preflop, you have to push on the flop.

AllinDan · #7 11-10-2005, 02:22 AM

Ugh. This is why I'd push this preflop, especially given your numbers on villain. You definitely have a lot of FE, and if villain and BB both fold, you pick up 300. Incidentally, I'd love to get called by Ax/Kx/Junk here. You'd pass up the chance to double up as a 70/30 favorite here?

Given your line, I probably unhappily fold to his flop bet, but it would make me sick.

#8 11-10-2005, 02:30 AM

Thanks guys. I believe you when you say I should have gone all-in or folded, but could use some additional guidance as to why.

When any A-Q on the flop can knock me and my JJ out of the tournament, I didn't think I should risk it all to a coinflip by instapushing. I figured my raise is high enough to push any crap cards he was playing out of the way. I don't think he'd call that reraise without JJ+, AJ+, KQ. I felt I had a real good chance to win the pot right there. When he called, the flop came with two overcards. I decided that I wasn't going to risk my stack for what at best would be a coin flip and folded. I went on to place 3rd.

What hand would you have put him on, to call my PFRR? I've played less than 10% of my hands to this point.

#9 11-10-2005, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys. I believe you when you say I should have gone all-in or folded, but could use some additional guidance as to why.

When any A-Q on the flop can knock me and my JJ out of the tournament, I didn't think I should risk it all to a coinflip by instapushing. I figured my raise is high enough to push any crap cards he was playing out of the way. I don't think he'd call that reraise without JJ+, AJ+, KQ. I felt I had a real good chance to win the pot right there. When he called, the flop came with two overcards. I decided that I wasn't going to risk my stack for what at best would be a coin flip and folded. I went on to place 3rd.

What hand would you have put him on, to call my PFRR? I've played less than 10% of my hands to this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is my reasoning way off base here? I'm not looking to convince anyone I'm right, it's just that I could use a little help seeing where my logic is faulty. Thanks in advance.

AllinDan · #10 11-10-2005, 05:01 AM

If you give villain a calling range of TT+/AJs+/AQ+/KQ+ he only calls your push 25% of the time. You are 50.7% against this range, and the other 75% of the time you pick up 300 chips.

However, the 1/20 times he has AA-QQ you're going to get it all in on an undercard flop anyway and be in bad shape. If we remove AA-QQ from his range your equity goes up to 60%.

You're putting in almost half of your stack out of position in order to play a hand where any A-Q forces you to fold after investing 600 chips.

So you're a coinflip only if you're called, which you won't be 75% of the time, and you're putting in way too many chips to play this big a pot out of position.

After thinking about this more, I'd say a flat call wouldn't be awful, but if you're going to raise just get it all in there.

I'm having trouble explaining this as clearly as I'm thinking it, some help would be appreciated.