final table hand, please flame away

MrX · #1 03-28-2005, 03:47 AM

This hand was at the final table of the Empire 200k tourney.
I was 7th in chips at the time.

Pay scale was
10th 2k
9th 3k
8th 4k
7th-4th all go up 2k each
3rd 18 k
2nd 30k
1st 44k

Preflop raiser would min raise with a varitey of cards, last time I saw it he had KT, he would also do it with mid to low pocket pairs (saw 44 once)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (10 handed) converter

Hero (t38634)
UTG (t151446)
UTG+1 (t48092)
UTG+2 (t29754)
MP1 (t59222)
MP2 (t123136)
MP3 (t22960)
CO (t32510)
Button (t70272)
SB (t34974)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 raises to t8000, 4 folds, Hero calls t4000.

Flop: (t18000) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t4000, MP2 calls t26634.

Turn: (t48634) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t48634) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t48634

his min bet on the flop was really odd, and I feel I got way out of line on this hand by reraising all in.

Would anyone fold this preflop? Should I have led out the flop? It was really hard to put him on an Ace with that weird min bet on the flop.

I feel like I did not make a good transition from playing at a 5-6 handed table for a while to going back to a full table.

MrX

Che · #2 03-28-2005, 04:01 AM

Against a laggy chip leader (well, second is close enough), I'd be tempted to see a cheap flop here although pushing and folding are both reasonable as well. I could choose any of the three depending on how I rated my folding equity, how likely people were to bust out on stupid hands (like that Pacific $1Mil tourney, still pissed that I didn't play that one), etc.

Once I see the flop, I lead if I think the opponent needs an A to call. Otherwise, I give this one up and wait for a better opportunity to double up.

Actually, I'd be tempted to call his minbet in hopes of hitting a Q or J, but that's probably not a smart way to play the final table so I hope I would just fold.

If he's minbetting after every flop he openraises, then the push is fine.

Weird.

Hope it worked out,
Che

XChamp · #3 03-28-2005, 08:51 AM

I would either call or push preflop against an opponent like that. On the flop I would lead out and if he calls or raises I am done with the hand (unless he calls and you turn trips or something like that). The key is the size of the bet you make. The more of a "caller" he is the bigger the bet has to be, because you definitely do not want him calling with KT and either hitting or more likely bluffing the river and taking it down.

Masquerade · #4 03-28-2005, 10:03 AM

Definitely call pre-flop. Post-flop I check and fold. There's an ace out there.

MrX · #5 03-28-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand was at the final table of the Empire 200k tourney.
I was 7th in chips at the time.

Pay scale was
10th 2k
9th 3k
8th 4k
7th-4th all go up 2k each
3rd 18 k
2nd 30k
1st 44k

Preflop raiser would min raise with a varitey of cards, last time I saw it he had KT, he would also do it with mid to low pocket pairs (saw 44 once)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (10 handed) converter

Hero (t38634)
UTG (t151446)
UTG+1 (t48092)
UTG+2 (t29754)
MP1 (t59222)
MP2 (t123136)
MP3 (t22960)
CO (t32510)
Button (t70272)
SB (t34974)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 raises to t8000, 4 folds, Hero calls t4000.

Flop: (t18000) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t4000, MP2 calls t26634.

Turn: (t48634) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t48634) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t48634

his min bet on the flop was really odd, and I feel I got way out of line on this hand by reraising all in.

Would anyone fold this preflop? Should I have led out the flop? It was really hard to put him on an Ace with that weird min bet on the flop.

I feel like I did not make a good transition from playing at a 5-6 handed table for a while to going back to a full table.

MrX

[/ QUOTE ]

what was not clear in the hand history was that I check raised all after he min raised the flop. And he had A9, called and won.

I appreciate all the responses, this was a hand I felt like I butchered, especially being far from desperation time, and at the point where the pay scale really starts to escalate.

Preflop: I think preflep the call was right. I think pushing would have been a poor play.

Flop: I probably wussed and did not bet the flop, but my quandry was how much to bet without pot committing myself if he pushes, and what if he smooth calls, do I shut it down on the turn if I do not improve, basically inviting him to take the pot away from me.

At the time of the flop pot is 22000 and I have 30000 chips and villain has me covered.

I think it would be a crime to fold on the flop for a 4000 bet when the pot at that time is 22000. So if I do call preflop, I probably need to at least call the 4k flop bet and see what the turn brings..or..

Lead out, but leading out any more than 10k seems to pot comitt myself (and 10k comes close to that), so maybe a 9k bet on the flop would be best, and shut it down if he calls or pushes.

The play I made is a play I make a lot toward the late stages of a SNG which I believe is successful for me. The difference is that is in a 2-5 player table, not at a full table.

I have to admit I misinterpretted his min flop bet as representing a pocket pair, or a missed or two big cards like KJ, KT, JT, or even two random cards (which was not unlikely given the cards he had shown).

I think if I had to order my options now

1. lead out the flop 9k (please comment if you think a different amount is better)

2. check call the flop

3. check raise flop (which I still think given my read was not too bad a play, but prob not the best, especially given the pay structure and my position)

4. fold preflop

Or, am I over-valuing QJs preflop out of position here and just inviting trouble?

MrX

PktAcesSoWht · #6 03-28-2005, 12:14 PM

Pre flop call was fine to me. I think that the all in after the min raise is too aggressive with the A on the board. If you fold here you are still in good shape at your table. I think I would have bet out on the flop instead of check/pushing. If you were thinking that your chips would all go in to any action from him, why not push on the flop to begin with? Just calling the flop to see the turn I think would have been okay, but then I would be done with this hand if he bet out on the turn. If there would have been no Ace on the flop I would have pushed like you did.

billyjex · #7 03-28-2005, 01:33 PM

MrX -

I saw the hand as it happened and at first I thought it was a horrible play by you, but thinking back on it I can't fault you for your play and given the situation wasn't bad, though I wouldn't have played it the same way.

I would definetely smooth call preflop and see what develops. However, I think flopping middle pair I wouldn't do anything but check/fold. His min-bet on the flop is annoying and might be weakness but also could be incredible strength.

schwza · #8 03-28-2005, 01:50 PM

i would fold preflop. with only ~10x stacks, QJs is not too strong. if you were deeper and could play more for flush/straight value, it'd be a much stronger hand. if villain has been very aggro with the min-raises, you could push here.

once you see the flop, i think you should lead out. if he raises, you can fold confidently. if he flat calls, you've got to believe you're behind unless you improve.

SharkBait · #9 03-28-2005, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a laggy chip leader (well, second is close enough), I'd be tempted to see a cheap flop here although pushing and folding are both reasonable as well. I could choose any of the three depending on how I rated my folding equity, how likely people were to bust out on stupid hands (like that Pacific $1Mil tourney, still pissed that I didn't play that one), etc.

Once I see the flop, I lead if I think the opponent needs an A to call. Otherwise, I give this one up and wait for a better opportunity to double up.

Actually, I'd be tempted to call his minbet in hopes of hitting a Q or J, but that's probably not a smart way to play the final table so I hope I would just fold.

If he's minbetting after every flop he openraises, then the push is fine.

Weird.

Hope it worked out,
Che

[/ QUOTE ]

Che-

I really respect your views and have learned alot from your posts. Preflop this seems like it would be a very questionable push given stack sizes etc. If hero comes over the top allin, villan is getting about 1.7 to 1 to call and will still be in 2nd by a fair amount if he looses. The only thing I see him folding is a naked bluff (which I find unlikely given the miniraise). With QJs I don't want to see Ax, KT or any pair for all of my chips given the payouts here. If villan's stack size is closer to the pack then I think the push has good folding equity but think he has too many chips here.

Am I missing something here? How often would this be a push for you? What do others think.

Che · #10 03-28-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How often would this be a push for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop? Only if he's open-minraising every time it's folded to him (or very close to it).

On the flop? As I said before, if he's minbetting every flop as his automatic continuation bet, I would push.

Later,
Che