Don't players make moves? Is bluffing non-existant? - Page 3

Rocaix · #21 03-03-2005, 05:09 PM

Picking off bluffs is most definately based on strong hand reading, it comes down to looking at logically what the player is representing with their play on previous streets. I think some players have a tendency to "freeze up" when the pot starts getting big and they don't have the nuts.

I tend to think on boards with draws, when the draws don't get there at the end and the pot has become sizable. Any signs of weakness will greatly increase the likelihood a bluff at the pot. As many players tend to think that because they've invested alot in the pot, they are obligated to make a play at it, especially when the other player has indicate he is willing to lay down. Such as in this case, where I have likely defined my hand at the end by checking. Against some players, I might turbo muck here knowing I'm crushed. However with this player I thought that by checking it to him, he would almost certainly bluff at it with any missed draw or Weaker Ace.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

UTG ($438)
MP ($356)
CO ($516.2)
Button ($651.4)
Hero ($1115)
BB ($1221)

Preflop:
Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Hero posts a blind of $3.
 2 Folds, CO Calls $6, Button Calls $6, Hero raises to $28, 1 Fold. CO calls $22, Button calls $22.

Flop: ($88) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
 Hero bets $70, CO folds, Button calls $70.

Turn: ($227) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $135, Button calls $135.

River: ($497) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero Checks, Button calls $418.4 (All-In), Hero calls $418.4 (All-In)

Final Pot: $1333.8

Results in white below: 
Button has 8c 9s (one pair, threes).
Hero has Ad Qd (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $1333.8

Post-Oak · #22 03-03-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against some players, I might turbo muck here knowing I'm crushed. However with this player I thought that by checking it to him, he would almost certainly bluff at it with any missed draw or Weaker Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do against a player who is totally unknown to you?

I think that is the crux of the argument.

random · #23 03-03-2005, 05:21 PM

I hate to fold.

FoxwoodsFiend · #24 03-03-2005, 05:29 PM

Wow...I would try to keep knowledge of that hand suppressed. Probably better if you don't let too many people know about that one. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

random · #25 03-03-2005, 05:45 PM

We all sucked at some point. Some of us still do. Oh well?

cero_z · #26 03-03-2005, 05:46 PM

Hi Post-Oak,

[ QUOTE ]
I play in games where an all-in raise (of hero's bet) on the river means a big hand, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you guys are talking about the PP 1000 NL, I don't agree with this statement at all. I see lots of bluffing, and the reason I see it is that it often gets called by someone else. So, while people on this forum might be advising others to generally not suspect a bluff when an unknown bets/raises big, I highly doubt they are folding as much as they're advocating.

There are much more frequent big-pot showdowns these PP games (that I've played in / observed) than in comparable (stakes) games at Foxwoods in Nov, or Tunica in Jan (sorry guys, I don't get out of VA all that often). And this is not solely attributable to the increased number of hands played. So, I can't say whether folks are calling too much, or bluffing too much; all I know is there are a lot of big showdowns in this game.

In general, it seems like the posters who play higher stakes NL than most here are saying that people are folding too much; I'm in this camp, as well. But as Post-Oak pointed out, this could very well have something to do with the types of games we play in.

One thing I will say: it's fairly easy to spot the winning players who virtually NEVER make a move at a pot on PP for big money. They are in multiple games, they rarely play a hand in EP, and they almost never limp in to a pot. Put one of these guys in my game, and he's going to get tested often with raises that will make him uncomfortable. But, I play in 6-max games mostly, and these nut peddlers tend to play in the full games; there, I just have to stay out of his way.

Ulysses · #27 03-03-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how powerful the combo of some chance of a bluff + some chance of the best hand + a good draw even when not against a bluff is.

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Lawrence Ng · #28 03-03-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop:
Hero is SB with A, Q Hero posts a blind of $3.
2 Folds, CO Calls $6, Button Calls $6, Hero raises to $28, 1 Fold. CO calls $22, Button calls $22.

Flop: ($88) 6 7, A (3 players)
Hero bets $70, CO folds, Button calls $70.

Turn: ($227) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $135, Button calls $135.

River: ($497) 2 (2 players)
Hero Checks, Button calls $418.4 (All-In), Hero calls $418.4 (All-In)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a perfect example of inducing a bluff when you belive your opponent missed a draw. Your opponent's mistake however was not the river bet, but the size of the river bet. He could have just easily gotten away with a bluff as a much cheaper price with a 1/2 pot bet instead of a full pot bet.

Very nice play on the river.

Lawrence

Loci · #29 03-03-2005, 09:39 PM

Good talk.
No better place to get better, imo.
Ez

Sponger15SB · #30 03-03-2005, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I ran my time bank down and called

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you are a [censored] jackass!