A9s vs. turn screwplay

Nick C · #1 11-22-2005, 05:32 PM

I was new at the table and didn't have much of a read on BB.

I've been seeing this play more frequently than I used to, and I'm wondering what you guys think it usually means from a 5/10 unknown.

Oh, and if you want to give advice on the hand, you can do that too.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

hobbsmann · #2 11-22-2005, 05:45 PM

I think the screwplay is a pretty powerful play that actually should be utilized more at these mid limits against aggro types. The reason being is the times you are OOP and raised preflop you will essentially always continuation bet the flop and sometimes check the turn when you have completely whiffed, usually conceeding the hand. What the turn play does is it buys you free rivers ocassionally when you missed the flop with a good hand while also extracting value from aggro types who think they can often pick up pots from you the times you check the turn.

I think this starts to become important at 5/10 and up online where it becomes common for seemingly decent looking players to start floating you preflop, calling flops and leaving you in an uncomfortable position for the rest of the hand often times. Thus the screwplay is a great weapon against these [censored]. I even believe sklansky talks about in either TOP or HPFAP where you should be checking the turn with 'made' hands some certain percentage of the time looking to c/r.

gh9801 · #3 11-22-2005, 05:46 PM

I'd fold preflop but it probably doesn't matter much.

From my experience at 5/10 this is a play made often by people with FPS, but with a strong hand. On this kind of board BB shouldn't allow you to possibly check through the turn. But against aggro types this play is useful because now villain is more unpredictable when he does check the turn after betting the flop.

Anyways, I don't think there is bs involved here very often.

#4 11-22-2005, 05:48 PM

I am only a beginner and therefor cannot really help, but I fold your starting hand in your position against normal opponents.

hobbsmann · #5 11-22-2005, 05:49 PM

I guess I'll go against the grain here and say that I raise your starting hand preflop.

gh9801 · #6 11-22-2005, 05:53 PM

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I guess I'll go against the grain here and say that I raise your starting hand preflop.

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It probably depends on the type of table OP is at, the decision of probably folding, calling, and raising all have their merits.

It's so close it probably doesn't relaly matter.

Nick C · #7 11-22-2005, 06:01 PM

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Anyways, I don't think there is bs involved here very often.

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One of the first notes I ever made for a player at 5/10 was, "Turn screwplay semibluff." I wasn't involved in the hand that inspired the note, but watching it got me thinking, "Well, I guess this isn't 3/6 anymore."

However, since then the sense I've been getting is that the screwplay usually indicates a strong made hand. Often it seems like sort of a delayed slowplay, along these lines: Villain raises (or 3-bets) preflop and flops top set. Villain bets flop to avoid a highly suspicious flop check and gets a caller or two. Encouraged by this result, Villain then goes for the checkraise on the turn. (I guess more frequently Villain will go for the turn checkraise after getting raised on the flop, but I've also been seeing the screwplay sequence I just described.)

gh9801 · #8 11-22-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I don't think there is bs involved here very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the first notes I ever made for a player at 5/10 was, "Turn screwplay semibluff." I wasn't involved in the hand that inspired the note, but watching it got me thinking, "Well, I guess this isn't 3/6 anymore."

However, since then the sense I've been getting is that the screwplay usually indicates a strong made hand. Often it seems like sort of a delayed slowplay, along these lines: Villain raises (or 3-bets) preflop and flops top set. Villain bets flop to avoid a highly suspicious flop check and gets a caller or two. Encouraged by this result, Villain then goes for the checkraise on the turn. (I guess more frequently Villain will go for the turn checkraise after getting raised on the flop, but I've also been seeing the screwplay sequence I just described.)

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The problem with this is when the turn does get checked through. It has happened to me a few times and it's irritating when you miss the bets or get outdrawn. Heads up against certain super aggros this line works like a charm the first few times. Then they catch on and when you try it a few hours later your plans get foiled.

And I pretty much have a good, made hand all the time I take this line. But by default in this type of situatino with a hand I'm just threebetting the flop and leading the turn, I feel that it's not worth the risk of losing lots of BB just to possibly with 0.5BB more

hobbsmann · #9 11-22-2005, 06:17 PM

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But by default in this type of situatino with a hand I'm just threebetting the flop and leading the turn, I feel that it's not worth the risk of losing lots of BB just to possibly with 0.5BB more

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By definition the screwplay is a turn check raise after being the last agrressor on the flop.

Example: live game a couple of weeks ago.

I raise AQh UTG1, cc by MP1, hu to the flop.
Kxx two hearts. I bet, he calls.

Turn brings a low heart and I c/r.

Now, since the flop is drawless except for the heart draw there is very strong possiblity that this guy has either a K or some other pocket pair and doesn't believe that I have a K. So my thinking is that he will view a turn check by me as legitimate weakness, either in the form of my giving up, or in the form of wanting to see the river with something like a heart draw for one bet max. Thus since the opponent will often enough view the turn check as legitmate weakness I should be able to get him to bet enough of the time to make this the most profitable line. Another thing to keep in mind is that giving a free card on this turn is of no consequence.

gh9801 · #10 11-22-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But by default in this type of situatino with a hand I'm just threebetting the flop and leading the turn, I feel that it's not worth the risk of losing lots of BB just to possibly with 0.5BB more

[/ QUOTE ]
By definition the screwplay is a turn check raise after being the last agrressor on the flop.

Example: live game a couple of weeks ago.

I raise AQh UTG1, cc by MP1, hu to the flop.
Kxx two hearts. I bet, he calls.

Turn brings a low heart and I c/r.

Now, since the flop is drawless except for the heart draw there is very strong possiblity that this guy has either a K or some other pocket pair and doesn't believe that I have a K. So my thinking is that he will view a turn check by me as legitimate weakness, either in the form of my giving up, or in the form of wanting to see the river with something like a heart draw for one bet max. Thus since the opponent will often enough view the turn check as legitmate weakness I should be able to get him to bet enough of the time to make this the most profitable line. Another thing to keep in mind is that giving a free card on this turn is of no consequence.

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If OP hero were calling with a flush draw on this board, and he does check through the turn then he just paid 0.5BB to see two cards. Yes, this check by villain is often legit weakness, but on this board with draws out there, I'm inclined to bet again on the turn if I have top pair here, instead of go for a screwplay. My check does not guarantee villain will bet. In my opinion a screwplay is better used on a board with less draws.

In your hand I think the screwplay is well used. But I believe that often times you'll still lose value if tried against less aggro opponents.