KK with way too much heat PF

#1 11-14-2005, 07:34 AM

This hand came up rather late in my session and I've been mulling over how else to play it. To begin, I had only been at the table for around 50 hands, but already the table had been incredibly loose and two players (UTG and UTG+1 for this hand) had spent the last 15 or so hands reraising everything, basically going crazy and rerasing each other with air. The table was really loosening up; other players were trying to get in on the action, but generally ended up getting pushed out of the pot. Both players had shown down decent hands so it wasn't as if they were complete maniacs, but by the same token, they had been making some odd moves, including open pushing into a PFR when a flush completed only to flip over a busted gutshot (after already having flipped over other busted bluffs). The other players in this hand were all the victims of the mad reraising and while they had only been at the table for a little while (20-30 hands), had shown decent hands (before all the craziness began), so they didn't seem to be complete fish either.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($13.40)
Hero ($25.75)
BB ($5.15)
UTG ($51.85)
UTG+1 ($28.90)
MP1 ($14.90)
MP2 ($9.70)
CO ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.75, 1 fold, Button calls $0.75, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $3.75, UTG calls $3.25, MP2 calls $3.25, Button calls $3.25.

Flop: ($20) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)

Final Pot: $20

Hero: ??????

My first thought was that I probably raised too little PF (mostly because I had just created a huge pot OOP). Second, it seemed my choices at this point were either, (a) push and hope to pull along draws that fought with each other for cards and take it down by pure luck, (b) make a weak lead, but considering the remaining stack sizes, seemed only to loose equity against the one other large stack, the UTG player, or (c) check and hope to check it down, but considering the stack sizes and the draws, I expected that to be basically impossible. Or is there hidden option D, check/fold? D seems way too weak tight for me but playing a huge pot OOP w/only 1 pair scares me.

So, my final thoughts are, first, which, if any line makes sense. Second, since this is probably what caused my problem in the first place, what should I have raised to PF? Thus far, the mad reraises had mostly succeded in pushing some people out and so I didn't expect all the callers (esp. not the BB), but should I have considered $6 or $7 and just try to take down the pot immediately (and how likely is that to have worked with all the short stacks involved)?

If you have read this far, thanks a million for your responses.

ThaHero · #2 11-14-2005, 07:38 AM

Yes, I think you raised too little. I'm a little surprised you got so many callers. I maybe would have raised to 5 at the least, probably 6.

I would push this flop here. Hope you aren't up against TT, 77, 66. I doubt 89 called that raise, although it's possible in late position at this level. Also, a diamond draw might fold, although I've seen flush draws push all-in here plenty times, so they may call as well.

#3 11-14-2005, 07:45 AM

im all in
but expecting to get sucked out on or double up

tuff lay down, but i think i could do it if someone goes all in before me

JaBlue · #4 11-14-2005, 08:24 AM

go all in and pray

scrapperdog · #5 11-14-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

My first thought was that I probably raised too little PF (mostly because I had just created a huge pot OOP).

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont mind playing a huge pot oop with pocket kings, loose table standards, and against a bunch of habitual bluffers. No you dont want to take the pot down pre flop, you did raise 16X BB.

I would not do any of the options you have listed. Option E) Check the flop, let one of the maniacs raise, you re-raise all in expecting to get called by any 10 or any diamond draw. I dont check raise people that much. But I do check raise maniacs. 90% of the time I lead out here, but the table condions you describe I do option E. I dont see much of a case for leading all-in. You probably are gonna only get called by a better hand. Check this and let the maniacs do their thing, then put your money in when it gets back to you and expect a call with a weaker hand.

Look at the options you have listed
A) Do this and probably only get called by a better hand, maybe a diamond draw or A10 if you are lucky.
B) This is horrible, you are begging to get sucked out on by doing this. If you want to lead weak with the intention of getting re-raised and them moving all in then I like this, but you did not mention the second half of the move.
C) You want to check down a large pot with maniacs and habitual bluffers at the table? Something tells me this is not going to happen.
D) LOL

E) Check the flop, let anyone with a diamond draw or 10 try and take it down, then move in over the top. They will feel pot commited then and call with a worse hand than yours, or be forced to fold and you have made the extra money they put in.

Again this is only for the table conditions you have described.

#6 11-14-2005, 08:59 AM

I'm going all-in. Had the board been less draw heavy, I think a case can be made for checking and giving one of the maniacs a chance to bet. However, there are too many draws on this board, that you really can't afford to give a free card.

Dumle

scrapperdog · #7 11-14-2005, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going all-in. Had the board been less draw heavy, I think a case can be made for checking and giving one of the maniacs a chance to bet. However, there are too many draws on this board, that you really can't afford to give a free card.

Dumle

[/ QUOTE ]

She/he said the last 15 hands have been spend rasing everything, even complete air. I am pretty sure you are gonna get a bet here.

#8 11-14-2005, 09:13 AM

Yeah, probably. I would still bet, though, because with 5 players to a flop this packed with draws, I would hate for this to be one of the rare times it gets checked through.

Dumle

#9 11-14-2005, 10:29 AM

Alright, since the consensus seems to be pushing, either an open push or a check/raise push, but getting all our money in, I decided to post results.

I suppose the $4 pre-flop reraise was alright for more normal conditions, but for this table, a larger raise was called for. Taking the same line suggested here, I open pushed, the BB instacalled (he only had $1 behind anyways) w/T9o for top pair + gutshot. Then the maniac and original raiser, UTG, thought about it for a while, ran the timer down to 10 seconds left, wrote "I am probably making a big mistake" and then called w/Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a flush draw. Then MP2 calls w/8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for another flush draw (yay!), middle pair and another gut shot. Then the button calls w/77 for the set. The board runs out 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The set takes the main pot and a side pot, but luckily, I managed to beat UTG and ended up losing only $1.35. I think PT put my expected win % at 4% on the flop. In the end, I lucked out, but after thinking through the hand, I couldn't come up with a better line. Thanks for the replies, I'm rather more assured about the hand, since at the time it seemed I was spewing.

RubbleRobble · #10 11-14-2005, 10:34 AM

Scrapper, I don't like your check shove tactic here. Think about it from the point of view of the hero's opposition. The maniac makes a 3x raise UTG, which is his M.O., but still... 2 callers, and the SB raises the pot. Do you think that anyone would make a raise that big into that many potential callers without a hand like AA, KK, QQ or AKs? You even have to factor in the fact that everyone knows hero knows he'll be out of position on the flop. They all called, so no one has a better PF hand than you, they are all drawers trying to extract some money from the terrible UTG. Flop is rags, if you check, I don't think even the maniac with the gun is gonna be dumb enough to bet there, even with his priors. Checking risks giving XdXd their flush, and even more gut churning would be giving AQ or whatever their three outer.

Don't be risk it, cause risking it is just getting greedy. Shove on the flop and hope none of the smaller pairs connected. If they dont have a set, any call there is +EV for you.

On a side note: Normally a good raise pf, but I'd tack on a little something extra at this kind of maniacal table, if everyone is tryin to get a piece of the fish, you gotta let them know that you intend to win this pot. I'd go to 6 total pf.