Learning no limit

[JasonP530]

I am primarily a limit player, who plays anywhere from 10/20 to 100/200 online on a regular basis. I have played some no limit, both in tournaments and in live games and have done fairly well.

I would like to learn how to play no limit hold'em much better than I currently do. What limit do you suggest I begin learning(relearning at)? In the past I have played up to 10/20 no limit, but I have never felt comfortable in making the reads any plays necessary to be sucessful all the time. Is the game much more player oriented(so that while feeling it out, I should only be playing 1 or 2 games at a time to be sure I get a read on people)? I have most of the books on no limit hold'em, but I often find their explanations vague and unclear.

These are two hands that gave me trouble(they are at the 200 party game). I would appreciate your comments. 1 person limps and I limp in EP with QJs, 2 limp behind. The flop comes KQJ and two spades. EP 1 leads 10 and I raise to 30. He calls. Turn is the A of spades, and I had no idea what to do.

In the BB with AK. MP raises to 15. He is a little loose, has been running well and is up to about 1000. CO cold calls and I call. Flop is TT3 and no suits. Raiser bets 25, CO calls, and I do what?

It seems very weak to fold there, when I feel like I could have the best hand, or would be able to take the pot away from them. How often should I be trying to take it away from them when I think they are weak.

Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

[theBruiser500]

Based on those hands you are unsure of, I'd recommend starting at .5/1 or 1/2 NLHE. 10/20 NLHE is way over your head. QJ hand you don't have much, check, play a small pot. AK hand, fold, you do not have much. Don't feel compelled to make a play beacuse it feels "weak". I guess raising with AK would be more agressive, but it would also be overplaying your hand (lacking a very good read) and cost you money.

[JasonP530]

With respect to those hands, I did check the turn, and fold to a bet on the river, and I did muck my AK. When I said, "unsure," I just meant that it seems like I would be not betting into scare cards or doing anything to win pots when I dont have the best hand(which is my normal MO, playing tight, and is why I am able to beat the 5/10 NL games in casinos and online) I just feel like I am not able to play well against good players, who will be able to read me, and who WILL be making plays like this to take the pot away from me. Am I incorrect in my assessment, or is most of a good players game, playing good hands in good positions, and waiting until you hit some flops(like limit)?

[Leo Bello]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I incorrect in my assessment, or is most of a good players game, playing good hands in good positions, and waiting until you hit some flops(like limit)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lower limits ten handed, yeah u can play like that in the beggining. Higher limits or six handed you should have more in your arsenal.

[SkippingGoat]

I think the play you need to make in both these situations is extremely straightforward.

First hand is an easy check fold. Your hand is trash. You might have wanted to raise more on the flop to be sure to knock out a draw.

Second hand is also an easy fold. Generally, if you want to make a play you want to be first in the pot. You can certainly bluff raise, but such a play is usually suicide against two players who have already committed chips to the pot. Either could have overpairs that they're willing to call with and the caller in front of you could easily be slowplaying trips to which you're drawing almost dead. Pick situations to bluff in which you at least have a reasonable number of outs (semi-bluffing a opened ender or flush draw). I'd only bluff with nothing if I have a very strong read of the other player(s).

You should pick up a copy of Reuben and Caffione's Pot-Limit and No-Limit book.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
These are two hands that gave me trouble(they are at the 200 party game). I would appreciate your comments. 1 person limps and I limp in EP with QJs, 2 limp behind. The flop comes KQJ and two spades. EP 1 leads 10 and I raise to 30. He calls. Turn is the A of spades, and I had no idea what to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's about a million hands that beat you. You have to check or fold on this hand. Wait for a better spot.

[ QUOTE ]
In the BB with AK. MP raises to 15. He is a little loose, has been running well and is up to about 1000. CO cold calls and I call. Flop is TT3 and no suits. Raiser bets 25, CO calls, and I do what?

It seems very weak to fold there, when I feel like I could have the best hand, or would be able to take the pot away from them. How often should I be trying to take it away from them when I think they are weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're very unlikely to have the best hand here. While someone may not have a ten, there's a strong likely-hood that a pocket pair is up against you.

Try to think of no limit as a game where you're looking to win a few big pots here and there, and you want to do it with hands stronger than one pair (Unless it's a big pair and you get lots of money in preflop). No limit is a waiting game, wait until you find a good spot and then really push your edge.

Hope this helps,
Justin A

[JasonP530]

I guess I have been too enticed by watching the WSOP and watching people play shorthanded NL. The same as limit, solid play makes the money. Thanks for your help.

[turnipmonster]

if you're a 100/200 limit player, there's probably no need to start real small. in my experience the smaller games online are a lot different than "regular" higher stakes big bet games (in live games 5-5 and up is generally the dividing line, not sure what it is online, I would guess 3/6 or 5/10 blind games).

I somewhat disagree that you play solid in the same way that you would playing limit, your *value* bets and raises do need to be very solid, but you don't necessarily have to bet and raise for value. also a lot of times what your opponent may have is a lot more important than what you happen to have, especially in position. things like raising for a free card and jamming with a draw and other limit moves are generally incorrect. raising allin on the flop with a flush draw is a classic newbie move that can be a good play but you should use it sparingly as overbets are usually quite obvious.

personally I haven't watched much of the WPT, but from what I have seen of that and other shows (like the WSOP) tournament play has little to nothing to do with cash game play. in cash games the blinds just don't have a lot of value relative to most of the stacks at the table. sticking your neck out to steal the blinds is just not a +EV move in most cash games, since you're usually risking a lot to win a little.

I think when you first start out you should be playing solid and not bluffing a lot. over time you learn which situations you can and cannot bluff in and you gradually try to work that into your play. for instance, you may notice that a particular player will a lot of times stab at the pot on the flop and then give it up immediately on the turn. so you call to bluff him, in other words you call the flop and then take it down with a bet on the turn. against a different player this move won't work maybe.

pot/no limit with deep stacks is a beautiful, subtle game where you must play poker very well and make excellent decisions, especially on the later streets. you have to read your opponents very well and give them some credit, as well as make yourself relatively unreadable through whatever sort of balancing you choose.

--turnipmonster

[JasonP530]

Thank you very much turnip, was exactly what I was looking for. Hope I dont find you at the tables.