State sponsored suicide bombings by children

[nicky g]

Hmm. Let's have a look at what you are claiming now, compare it to what you origninally claimed, and see how both of them stand up:

"1. Arab schools teach children to hate Israel and the west, and that it is honorable to destroy the infidels."

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications. The other is an Iranian children's newspaper. Iran is not an Arab country. The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself) presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication. All it demonstrates is that there are people in the Muslim world who create pro-Hamas/IJ propaganda. This is hardly up for debate. None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones. One of them points to an Islamic Jihad training camp for children. Again, that Islamic Jihad tries to indoctrinate people in favour of suicide bombings is hardly under question. That it includes chilren is lamentable - this was not your claim, and not what I questioned. Furthermore, they all relate to suicide bombings against Israel; you have offered no evidence concerning children being encourage to hate the west or kill "infidels," in Palestine or any other Arab country. This is rather pathetic, as it would be pretty easy to find at elast one example of a school (most likely a fundamentalist Saudi religious school) that encouraged something along those lines, though I doubt if you could come close to showing that state schools in most Arab countries encourage this.

"2. Arab schools and Arab society teach and encourage children to become suicide bombers. "

Again, no evidence of anything about schools, and none of Arab society encouraging children to become suicide bombers outside of Palestine.

"3. Children are encouraged to become suicide bombers through propaganda campaigns consisting of cartoons depicting suicide bombers as heroes to be emulated."

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.


"4. Arab states sanction and financially support suicide bombings, and the teaching of schoolchildren to become suicide bombers. "

Er, you didn't say this either. At all. Almost certainly Hamas and IJ receive somne financial support from other countries, mainly Iran (not and Arab country), and Syria. This isn't most arab states, but anyway, this was not somethng I disputed, as you didn't claim it. It does not in anyway follow from this that most Arab countries teach their children to kill Jews, hate the West and kill trespassing infidels.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

Finally, this is what the HRW report you link to says about the PA's responsibility for terrorism:

"However, on the basis of evidence available through the end of September, 2002, Human Rights Watch did not find evidence demonstrating that President Arafat or other senior PA officials ordered, planned, or carried out suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians. While senior PA officials fostered an atmosphere of impunity, we also did not find evidence that they authorized specific attacks or attacks against civilians generally, or that PA officials or institutions organized or assisted in preparing or carrying out attacks against civilians systematically or as a matter of policy. The "memo to Tirawi" suggests that at least some senior PA officials viewed these attacks favorably, but, as discussed in Section V, the PA and the Fatah political leadership did not have the effective control over the actions of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades necessary to establish criminal liability under the doctrine of command responsibility."

The funding section offers some anecodotal evidence both for and against the idea that PA funds find there way into Fatah, and from their into the al-Asqa martyr brigades (though not enough for them to conclude that the PA could be held crimninally responsible for al-Asqa actions), and none of PA "financial support" for Hamas, which is what you actually claimed.

[BruceZ]

You read about on a par with the other leftists on this page. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you read. I can see I'm not going to have much time for this. I can't be working my ass off to dig up evidence that I've already seen of things that I and most people know are true just to convince you when you won't be convinced no matter what I show you, unless you want to pay my research fee. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries.

Iran is not an Arab country.

It is printed in Kuwait, and it says it is distributed by internet "throughout the muslim world".

The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post.

presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication.

It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it).

None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones.

What do you call this?
Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshipers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews. (The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2002)

This is rather pathetic

That's for sure. LOL And there is more evidence I could have put up specifically about what is being taught in Arab schools if this wasn't enough, I thought it was plenty. I know what is taught in the schools because I've seen interviews with those that attended those schools, and with the parents. See my post in the other thread, and M has some info on this too. But what good would it do? If I showed you 10 articles about 10 schools, you'd still just say "oh that's 10 schools out of the whole Arab world". You have a certain worldview you want to believe, and that is what you're going to believe no matter what anyone shows you. I look at the amount of evidence and the extreme nature of the evidence, and I say there is clearly a pervasive problem here, that can't exist without widespread cultural and governmental support. I have my read, and you have yours. If you want to believe all the antecdotes we read about are some isolated nut cases, and they live on an island surrounded by normal people, go right ahead. I hope you don't try to use that reading ability at poker, or if you do I want you at my table.

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.

I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again. I said this is how we can investigate this, and that is what I've done for some states. I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like you're convinced now.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something.

Sounds good to me, that's really all I ever claimed. Cal Thomas made the "most Arab" statement, not me. I just said we can find out if it's true by looking at what experts know about the financial support (last article) and by looking at what is taught in state run schools. State sponsored media is fine too, I don't care *how* the state indoctrinates the youth. But I know I can also find evidence for what is taught in schools in a number of countries, because I've heard interviews with people who attended those schools, and from parents who have had children in those schools. I can't post the interview in the web, but I'm sure I can find it documented somewhere. As for "killing infidels", of course they do, who else are the suicide bombers killing?

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries

[/ QUOTE ]

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.


"It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it)."

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored. It does not offer any evidence that Arab countries either permit or encourage its dissemination to children on the internet. All it shows is that someone has published suicide-bombing propaganda directeed at children on the net. It has nothing to do with schools, and nothing to do with "tresspassing infidels."

"Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshippers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews."

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

"I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started. "

You claimed it was true of "most." That's what I asked for evidence for. I said claimed you hadn't offered any evidence; you hadn't, and you still haven't offered any for the "most", "state-run schools", and "tresspassing infidels" claims.

"That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like your convinced.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?"

I wasn't responding to your "larger" point. I asked for evidence for, and specifically disagreed with, your claim that state-run schools in most Arab countries taught children to hate the West and kill "tresspassing infidels." You still haven't offered any evdence for this, and seem to be dropping it. I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state. You don't think Arafat could shut them down if he wanted to? You're spinning.

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

You are now trying to claim that there are only nitpicking dfferences betwen the claims that "Several Middle Eastern governments give financial support to Palestinian terrorist groups, and there is some propaganda aimed at indoctrinating children in favour of these groups (including some in offical PA media", and the statement that "Most Arab governments teach children in government-run schools teach children to hate the West and to kill tresspassing infidels." There is a world of difference.

[BruceZ]

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.

That's all I was intending to show, that a number of other countries support these terrorist groups. That was my main point, the suicide bombing was just one way to show that.

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored.

Right, and that means it's available in the countries where it's censored, so the government lets it through. It is well known that the government supports propaganda of this kind.

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

You just admitted that in your last post that I was responding to, check *your* short term memory. If you admit that, then you've made my case for me. The government supports propaganda aimed at getting kids to become suicide bombers and blow up as many Israeles as they can. Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done.

I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

2 for 2.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

You haven't read the newest additions to that thread yet.

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state.

This is why I inluded the financial link. To show how much money they get from these states, and to show that they would be severely limited without state support.

I also added some stuff to the previous post in this thread, probably while you were writing.

The bottom line is, I believe that Arab countries (and I never said most, show me where I said most)

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

That's not saying anything about what I think most Arab governments do. If you think it does, maybe you should get your comprehension checked. It's saying if you listen to what they tell the west, then you're gullible, no matter what they actually do, and if you want to know what they do, here's how to go about finding out. I have done this for *some* Arab governments, which is all I claimed at the top of this thread. I happen to believe that I can do it for more, I don't know about most, as in 12/22, I didn't put it in those terms.

I'm happy with your final conclusion. I know much more and I could prove more, but that's all I really care to prove.

[nicky g]

"Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done. "

Gah. I asked about government-run schools in Arab countries teaching children to hate the West and that it's honorable to kill "tresspassing infidels". You've responded with PA propaganda about suicide bombings against Israelis and the assertion that some Arab countries fund terrorists, neither of which I mentioned or queried.

I'll say it one more time: I asked for proof regarding , and described as fiction, your claim that state run schools in Arabic countries (I believe you meant most, but it doesn't matter right now as you've not done it for any) teach children to hate the West, and that it would be honourable for them to kill "trespassing infidels." If you have proof for this, then just show it.

[nicky g]

"The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post. "

This is teh attribution from the JP article: "by VJ's IDF Sources". It's the same article, from the same source.

[BruceZ]

But it's reprinted in the Jeruselem post, so they must consider this a reliable source.

[nicky g]

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something. Or do we have to "go to the mat" again? Er, "bring it on."

[MMMMMM]

OK for you guys who won't even read some sources because you think they are too biased, here are some sources to which you shouldn't have that objection. Good, factual articles...enjoy.


BBC

School Trains Suicide Bombers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1446003.stm


BBC

Schooling for Holy Warriors-Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/369484.stm


ADL

PA TV Mosque Sermon Praises Suicide Attacks and Calls For End Of Israel, U.S. and U.K., quoted text

http://www.adl.org/israel/mosque_sermon2.asp


TIME magazine

Saudi Schools, Imams and U.S. Relations (4 pages)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,331980-1,00.html

sorry, you will have to cut and paste the URL for the TIME article directly into the browser window since I am having trouble with the URL feature and my edit time may be about to expire

[BruceZ]

From the last link:

Parents say they are fed up with the Wahhabist school curriculum, which rears students on a diet of intolerance. A typical passage from a sixth-grade history textbook vows that "Arabs and Muslims will succeed, God willing, in beating the Jews and their allies."

Bingo. I had some others like this earlier, but I lost them, and for some reason I couldn't call them back from the search engine again.