KK and a lot of action

igbr1 · #1 11-18-2005, 03:05 PM

How would you play this hand?

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, Button calls, 1 folds, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB.

krimson · #2 11-18-2005, 03:12 PM

This river play is soooo bad. bet the river, call a raise. I wouldn't be surprised if you got pushed off the winning hand by QQ here.

The Goober · #3 11-18-2005, 03:15 PM

huh? why'd you check the river? No draws got there, JT is the only hand you are likely to have lost to.

When you check the river, most players will put you on UI AK. I'll bet button bet his J for value, and UTG raised his QQ and you folded the best hand. If you bet the river and it was raised and re-raised, then you could consider folding. As it is, though, you underrepresented your hand so badly so that you have to call.

centja1 · #4 11-18-2005, 03:34 PM

straight out of SSH, I'd just call the flop bet and raise UTG's turn bet on a non-spade, non-ace to press a bigger edge. you can't really offer incorrect odds to button and BB for whatever draw they are on, but you can definitely force them to make a thin call on the turn.

regardless of how i got there, though, I'd definitely value-bet this river card and all a raise.

krimson · #5 11-18-2005, 03:57 PM

We kind of discussed this same thing yesterday on another hand.

This is not straight of SSHE. This hand was bet and 3-bet before anyone else entered the hand, therefore the chances of them having small cards that may have gutshots on this flop are small.

It is better to raise the flop and shake off smaller pp's or give people with 5 outs a chance to make a bad fold.

edit: We would also like aces which missed the flop to fold.

gopnik · #6 11-18-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
straight out of SSH, I'd just call the flop bet and raise UTG's turn bet on a non-spade, non-ace to press a bigger edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about the same play here and I think KK is too strong to wait for the turn. Your equity on the flop is pretty big. People with A have 3 outs against you and are not getting proper odds to call if your raise.

Plus, what do you do if you just call the flop, turn is a spade and somebody else bets? Fold? Call down? I just don't like it

MrEngenic · #7 11-18-2005, 08:38 PM

Bet the river, call one raise, fold if UTG CR 3bets. It's possible you were pushed out with the best hand here.

silkyslim · #8 11-18-2005, 08:55 PM

ok im sure everyone will tell you to bet the river. have you read SSH? there is a river hand quiz exactly like this which explains why. i would suggest you read/reread that.

silkyslim · #9 11-18-2005, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
straight out of SSH, I'd just call the flop bet and raise UTG's turn bet on a non-spade, non-ace to press a bigger edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about the same play here and I think KK is too strong to wait for the turn. Your equity on the flop is pretty big. People with A have 3 outs against you and are not getting proper odds to call if your raise.

Plus, what do you do if you just call the flop, turn is a spade and somebody else bets? Fold? Call down? I just don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah sometimes waiting for the turn is good but in this instance i like raising the flop for the above reasons. I think SSH also goes over this in the hand quizzes with AA vs TT. they say to wait for the turn with TT because your equity could change drastically but the change iis not that significant with AA so just raise the flop. I think we can apply the same principle.