Stupid Laws

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Now, I do find it ridiculous that taxpayers ever have to foot the bill for orphaned children,

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Should we just burn the orphaned children like firewood then?


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No. I just don't think other people should be forced to pay for their care through taxation. If a parent doesn't have a friend or relative that can raise their children if necessary, they should buy life insurance. If that is not an option, hopefully they can live in a private orphanage. If someone has absolutely no means for a contingency plan, perhaps that person should not be having children.

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"Parental" laws are important because a large body of people do not have the knowledge, experience, or research to appropriately conclude that specific behaviors may not only harm themselves but others as well.

Seat belt laws and helmet laws save people huge amounts of money in reduced unpaid hospital bills and reduced utilization of medical facilities.

It's one thing to say "dumb people who don't use helmets deserve what they get". If that were the only reason to have helmet laws, then it essentially is a limitation of a person's rights. However it's another thing to say that *I* have to pay for their stupidity. Suddenly it becomes a societal issue and the laws deserve to be on the books.

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I'll refer you to what I said in my last post about secondary consequences. And, if you're going to use the money/healthcare argument you have grounds to ban fast food, DIY, swimming, driving tired, hell driving at all. I also agree that it's offensive what you said about people being too stupid to look after themselves - some may be but it's our perogative as free autonomous human beings to make that choice.

And as an aside (because even if you're right all that still applies), do you actually know that seat belt laws are saving people money on healthcare bills or are you just guessing? You got any figures? Or is it another second-hand smoke, where somehow it's the biggest killer out there but nobody knows a goddamn single person who's died as a result of it.

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I know how it works. You're handwaving around the issue. Whether the big group of people tells the small group directly or funnels their wishes through some sort of committee is not really important. Why does *anyone*, big group or individual, have any right to impose upon others? What magical pixie dust differentiates a group of voters from a mob with pitchforks and torches?

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Agreement. The power comes from getting the masses to believe it exists. You gradually structure a situation where they punish each other for doing a certain thing, and then you control that thing.

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I just wanted to agree with you... and express my enjoyment that pvn also agrees with you. He said it was "voluntarily cooperating", but that's pretty much the same thing. So, we agree to what our "rights" are, and voluntarily cooperate in coming up with rules to protect those rights. This can range anywhere from "I own my body, and have the right to do with it as I want, so long as I'm not infringing on other's" to "We agree that we do not have the right to bring loaded weapons onto airplanes." If we disagree with the agreements, then we can try to persuade people to change the agreement, not follow it (and reap the potential consequences enforced by those who do agree), or move to a place that has different agreements.

I'm not sure if any rights are "inalienable" -- but maybe that's a topic for another thread? Not that I've been very good at not combining streams of thought into different threads lately. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[benkahuna]

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It is quite a stretch of imagination to think a group of people can make "a decision". [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The neurons in my brain have a pretty hard time, too, but they manage. Most of the time. LOL.

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I know you're just trying to be funny, but you've gone the opposite direction (in terms of increasingly complex levels of organization) from the level of organization at which conscious decisions are made.

cells/tissues/organ (brain)/consciousness/society.

Consciousness is where it occurs...

If you want to get Jungian, then you can discuss the collective unconscious and talk about a group mind...

[mostsmooth]

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I believe that where I live in New Jersey, not wearing a seatbelt is a secondary offense so u can't be pulled over for it. but i have problems with saying anything anit-Nader so I'm going to plead the fifth...

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i got pulled over for no seatbelt during the clickitorticket campaign. i think they can pull you over just for seatbelts now because i dont think they could have pulled me for it during the campaign otherwise