Hand vs Sklansky

[Ulysses]

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There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

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So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

[obi---one]

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Among other things, I find two points interesting.

If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

What percentage of time should David play the hand as he did and then raise the river, when he has AK instead of KK?

The interesting part of this hand is that we have two players who presumably play well and have multiple levels of thought involved in their play, and thus must each consider their and their opponent's play with that in mind.

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If DS raises turn do you...
A. fold, pretty obvious against overpair
B. call, pretty obvious against overpair, have five outs,
C. reraise, pretty obvious against overpair, bluff his obvious overpair and try to get the nit to fold

[Schneids]

I'm pretty sure David and Mason both advocate playing the A8 flop and turn this same way a vast majority of the time. Obviously when David has kings the hand plays itself for him but what about when he has 77 or AK or KQ or whatever else on this board and the turn? I guess if us "young soon-to-be-broke whipper snappers" are playing all those types of hands that way (the pairs and the draws) he's in a much trickier spot. Unless you're saying DS only has a huge PP there, which if that is the case, then HE becomes very easy to play against. And sure, the guys who keep on firing and don't ever adjust are going to go broke. But there's also some of us with a brain on our heads and are capable of adjusting and playing different styles and understanding what people think of us, so please, save the pot-shots for WPT forum.

[NLSoldier]

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There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

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Have you ever played texas hold'em before?

[Catt]

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(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

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Sklansky factored in the EV of the chick seeing you pick off his bluff when he calculated his optimal bluffing frequency.

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This thread has been pretty good but this is pure gold.

[InfernoLL]

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even these guys with no reading skills whatsoever

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Kinda like just calling with the best hand twice?

[bigfishead]

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I'm pretty sure David and Mason both advocate playing the A8 flop and turn this same way a vast majority of the time. Obviously when David has kings the hand plays itself for him but what about when he has 77 or AK or KQ or whatever else on this board and the turn? I guess if us "young soon-to-be-broke whipper snappers" are playing all those types of hands that way (the pairs and the draws) he's in a much trickier spot. Unless you're saying DS only has a huge PP there, which if that is the case, then HE becomes very easy to play against. And sure, the guys who keep on firing and don't ever adjust are going to go broke. But there's also some of us with a brain on our heads and are capable of adjusting and playing different styles and understanding what people think of us, so please, save the pot-shots for WPT forum.

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Key to my post is THIS GAME. Meaning exactly, the 80/160 game at Bellagio. It doesnt play like the 30/60, it doesnt play like 200-400 or 300-600 when that is goin. After 20 years in poker I have seen them come n go more than once.

If one cannot see the +1 1/2 bets gained in this hand(my mistake in orginal stating 1 bet) played exactly as DS did, compared to what others were suggesting, I cant help that.

You are exactly correct in being able to make adjustments to DS's play for your own future confrontations with him. The thing is I see the same young kids I spoke of before NOT making these adjustments in THIS GAME. It isnt a pot shot...it's a fact. Maybe an eye opener for a select few. Super AGGRO does not always take the money. And DS and many others know exactly how to break those type. I've paid my bills off them many times over.

In the last 2 years poker in live games is ten times more aggressive thanks to WPT/WSOP television. Swings are higher for the old LV types but most adjust and remember the constant aggression of California games for the last 15 years. Hence ways in which TA was villified a year ago for playing become +ev much more clearly.

I have no doubt in my mind that if DS raises the turn Schneids is gone from this hand in particular. And DS will muck more often with the hands you state when schneids has him beat. Also if Schneids check raises the flop as is MOST OFTEN done with this exact hand he has in this EXACT GAME, and DS 3 bets, schneids is gone. But if Schneids CR's and DS smooth calls with the over pair he now makes 1 1/2 bets more netting approximately 9 bets MORE per 10 times played.

I hope I didnt screw up the way I wrote it.

Mason and I were talking very recently in fact about the over aggressive nature of this game and most HE games today in fact. This over aggressiveness is fully 80% of the time from those "youngsters"(anything under 25 easily qualifies, tho I sometimes suggest 30). It's a very simple fact, time at the tables.

Dont believe me? Go play 2-5 NL for 8 hrs a day for a week at Bellagio. Then go play the 10-20 NL...two completely different worlds. One is Gambling, one is a NL game. Avg age difference at the table? easily 10+ years avg difference.

[Ulysses]

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If one cannot see the +1 1/2 bets gained in this hand(my mistake in orginal stating 1 bet) played exactly as DS did, compared to what others were suggesting, I cant help that.

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Please elaborate how David's play gains 1.5 bets over taking the same line and then raising the river here. Please also explain how it is you think David should play AK in this situation. You and others seem to be all wrapped up in the fact that David happened to have KK in this spot and Schneids had A8o. As I said earlier, what if David has AK? What if Schneids has JT?

Your thoughts throughout this thread seem to imply that either DS or Schneids or both are very easy to play against.

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Go play 2-5 NL for 8 hrs a day for a week at Bellagio. Then go play the 10-20 NL...two completely different worlds. One is Gambling, one is a NL game.

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This sounds suspiciously like the old "you can't beat this game, all the morons never fold" argument.

[bigfishead]

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There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

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So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

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I'm missing something here El Diablo. I dont see how your question relates to the statement of mine you quoted. BTW, can you see TA plating it just like DS did? I think you can.
Just wonderin.

[Ulysses]

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There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

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So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

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I'm missing something here El Diablo. I dont see how your question relates to the statement of mine you quoted.

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Perhaps if you attempt to answer the question(s) I ask, this will become clearer to you.

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BTW, can you see TA plating it just like DS did?

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Sure, but I'm not sure what that shows.