Is this KK line reasonable?

Stealthy · #1 10-22-2005, 02:06 PM

MP1 is something silly like 81/0/0.4/ (84 hands) although he tried to take a couple of pots off of me heads up when he had nothing, I hadn't pushed him off of a pot pre-flop the whole game! MP2 is a decent TAG 17/8/3.2/ (224 hands). UTG is 48/7/2/ (95 hands) so quite the lag and his bets can be any pair or any draw.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, UTG calls, Hero folds

I raised the flop to see where I was with the pre-flop re-raisor. But with everybody calling I was not puting any more in unless another heart came. OK or should I fold the flop?

W. Deranged · #2 10-22-2005, 02:29 PM

I don't like the flop raise. Your hand is very, very unlikely to win unimproved. You do have set outs (maybe) and backdoor flush outs, so you can make an argument for peeling IF you are confident the players behind you are passive and usually won't raise. The pot is big, true, but you also are almost never going to be ahead here (your opponents would have to have a very specific and unlikely combination of hands for you to be ahead). Folding the flop is totally fine in my opinion.

nomadtla · #3 10-22-2005, 02:29 PM

Raising the flop to try and get it heads up and going to a way ahead/way behind with the semi-lag line is good here on the flop. With that many callers someone has the A 95% of the time so folding the non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn seems standard to me.

Fantam · #4 10-22-2005, 02:31 PM

I think that raising the flop was correct, because UTG could have been betting with a flush draw and MP2 might have had a lower pocket pair than you.

With your 3 opponents all calling the flop, it suggests that one of them might have had an A. However, I would still have preferred a turn bet, so as not to give a free card to a drawing hand.

I am also not convinced that you were beaten when MP2 bet the turn. MP2 may simply have been betting with a smaller pocket pair than yours, because everyone else had checked to him.

I would also have bet a non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river for value, if checked to.

#5 10-22-2005, 02:37 PM

Peel on the flop to try to hit a set or pick up a flush draw or just fold. Someone has most certainly an ace or better otherwise they wouldnt be betting into a preflop capper with an ace on the board.

W. Deranged · #6 10-22-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that raising the flop was correct, because UTG could have been betting with a flush draw and MP2 might have had a lower pocket pair than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like pretty wishful thinking to me...

I don't play 1/2, but do you often see four players seeing the flop for a cap without a single player holding an A?

I see many opponents even at higher levels who are unable to get rid of a hand like KK in this spot. Realize that you are going to need to put in a bunch more bets to take this pot down. Raising the flop gets you psychologically and tactically tied to the hand, and it is going to be very hard to get done with this hand without usually putting more money in, often when behind. In a 4 way pot I see no reason why this hand has to see a showdown.

Stealthy · #7 10-22-2005, 02:42 PM

If UTG had not called the turn I would have considered calling it down but he was either drawing to a hand that would beat me or had an ace. I put MP2 on a big Ace or QQ JJ TT. I would not have expected him bet into 3 players without an ace though. The only one I was not worried about was MP1 as he was as likely to have 84 off as an ace.

bwana devil · #8 10-22-2005, 02:44 PM

raising the flop was definitely the right thing to do. it defined the hand and told everyone you hand some power...and unfortunately they stuck around.

given that it's probably best to shed a tear a kiss your kings farewell against these players. if it was a table full of unknowns or all bad players id think differently but in this situation i lean toward dropping them.

Fantam · #9 10-22-2005, 02:45 PM

Having thought about this hand a bit more, I think that you are right.

Raising the flop with an A showing, after 3 players have called a preflop cap does now seem to me to be overagressive play.

nomadtla · #10 10-22-2005, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that raising the flop was correct, because UTG could have been betting with a flush draw and MP2 might have had a lower pocket pair than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like pretty wishful thinking to me...

I don't play 1/2, but do you often see four players seeing the flop for a cap without a single player holding an A?

I see many opponents even at higher levels who are unable to get rid of a hand like KK in this spot. Realize that you are going to need to put in a bunch more bets to take this pot down. Raising the flop gets you psychologically and tactically tied to the hand, and it is going to be very hard to get done with this hand without usually putting more money in, often when behind. In a 4 way pot I see no reason why this hand has to see a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

very well explained reasoning and even though I normally raise the flop as I advocated, I can see how this is a leak in this spot against this many opponents. Looks like I got some JJ, QQ, KK hand histories of mine to review.
thanx