Student who was visited by Homeland Security

[vulturesrow]

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Go back and read the thread. Nobody mentioned the Constitution until you brought it up. You brought up and argument nobody was making, then tried to refute the argument. Weak

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Go back and read my post. I said that I have asked that in past. That said, lets be realistic here and admit that the Patriot Act is often mentioned and at least implied in discussions of this sort. I mentioned it because Submariner mentioned it in one of his posts.

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Incidentally, many people who say that the USA PATRIOT act is trampling on the Constitution mean exactly what I said in the quote referenced above, i.e. that it violates the fundamental principles of the Constitution.

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Im still waiting for someone to tell me which fundamental principles and how they are being violated.

[elwoodblues]

How about the fundamental principle set forth in the fourth amendment of the constitution:
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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Warrantless searches under FISA and the extension of those searches under the USA PATRIOT act run counter to the long-held principle that warrants (based on probable cause) are required.

Tracking library loans and other actions taken under the USA PATRIOT act violate this same principle.

The general principle is that you have the right to be left alone unless the government has probable cause to snoop (sorry about all the complex legalese [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[vulturesrow]

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Warrantless searches under FISA and the extension of those searches under the USA PATRIOT act run counter to the long-held principle that warrants (based on probable cause) are required.


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Section 213, delayed notification? A power that has been granted to investigators now for decades and has been validated by the Supreme Court.

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Tracking library loans and other actions taken under the USA PATRIOT act violate this same principle.


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Probably a reference to Section 215? Criminal investigators have always had been allowed access to 3rd party disclosures without needing a warrant or probable cause.

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The general principle is that you have the right to be left alone unless the government has probable cause to snoop (sorry about all the complex legalese

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Generally speaking, as a conservative, I generally agree with this. I just dont think that the Patriot Act violates those principles. And thanks for keeping the language, we conservatives have enough trouble with that as it is. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All that said, my real gripe with people attacking the Patriot Act, is more of an irritation with their almost pathological inability to provide any details. I think your post is by far the best Ive seen in response to my challenge. Guess this means you are my monkey! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]