QQ - Raise/fold the turn

Evan · #1 11-08-2005, 07:11 PM

JBB didn't like this hand, I think it's good.
BB is loose passive, UTG is unknown

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.83 BB

jph0424 · #2 11-08-2005, 07:33 PM

I may call turn and river rather than raising here. With the way you played it, after he three bets a fold is definitely good.

matt hooley · #3 11-08-2005, 07:37 PM

why not call the turn and raise-fold a river blank?

#4 11-08-2005, 07:39 PM

If UTG is able to hand read at all, why can't he be 3 betting 2 pair?

WillyTrailer · #5 11-08-2005, 07:41 PM

I don't think raising this turn is a good idea.

what is your reason for raising the turn?

just curious...

does it make us more money when ahead or lose less when behind or...???

-WT

ErrantNight · #6 11-08-2005, 07:43 PM

i don't see how you're ever ahead when this gets 3-bet, but i suppose the issue is really whether to show down at the expense of letting BB draw cheaply. but i'm not sure given BB's preflop 3-bet that he very frequently has that many outs against you. of course, since you really don't even have a miracle river card left in the deck, i suppose it makes sense to save yourself outs and charge UTG if he's betting a worse hand. me likey.

since the other option is to show down for the same amount, but give BB a chance to catch, your raise is a parlay that me like.

bobbyi · #7 11-08-2005, 08:07 PM

It's a tough spot because getting three-bet on the turn means you are often going to make a mistake against whatever hand he is actually holding. If you knew he had a straight, then calling the three-bet would be wrong. If you knew he had a set (or two pair or even something goofy that you are actually ahead of) then folding would be wrong. But you don't know which it is, so no matter what you pick you know that your turn raise has forced you to sometimes do the wrong thing. OTOH, if your hand is best, it sucks to let BB see the river cheap. But how likely is that? And if he has something like AK isn't there a good chance he won't overcall the turn here anyway?

W. Deranged · #8 11-08-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why not call the turn and raise-fold a river blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any line that commits to putting 3 BB into this pot cannot possibly be right. What is a river blank going to do for us anyway? Usually if we're behind we're way behind or at best drawing to a chop against a set. Villain is very unlikely to still be drawing at a gutshot or something. If the river improves anyone it'll probably be the BB because we've let him stay and draw really cheap.

So waiting until the river here to raise sucks.

I also don't really like calling down. And folding seems way too weak.

So I like Evan's raise fold. I think Bobbyi's comment is a good one, but I think that it's pretty rare that we are going to get three-bet by anything but a straight here, so I'm really not that worried about folding a live draw (mostly to half the pot) against a set.

Borodog · #9 11-08-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I think that it's pretty rare that we are going to get three-bet by anything but a straight here

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not certain I agree. The way Hero played this hand it's pretty clear to the Villain that he has only a big pocket pair, and any 2 pair or set is good. Am I wrong?

SenecaJim · #10 11-08-2005, 08:33 PM

my thinking might be weak tight here, so please respond to my response. I don't see the raise here.

An inside straight draw would not get the odds anyway, flush draw or better hand (2 pair or set) not going anywhere and a straight gonna get reraised ( I would think ). Only hand I can see having an effect on is one pair tryin to hit kicker ( 5 outs) which is on borderline odds wise, probably less considering the board.

If I am investing 2 bets on this am going for showdown with it....like I said , though, my thinking might be weak tight. Please comment.