still losing after 20000 hands in 1/2 (LC)

[therockofgibraltar]

Ok, so after 20000 hands I can’t beat 1/2 SH. What is the way to beat it?

I play tight pf. Raise my good hands. Used to isolate LAGs but it won’t work because no one after me is folding. I am aggressive on the flop / turn with good hands (TP etc.). I play middle pair if the pot is big and I have the odds to call OR if HU then I don’t need so big of odds. If the pot is big and the bet comes from my right, I try to cut the field by raising. Draws, I play heavily when I have equity. UI overcards I usually check/fold unless against < 3 opponents and then when the board is “safe”. I do not semibluff because no one is gonna fold. I just valuebet. I am more agg with marginal hands when in position. So pretty solid preflop and postlfop. Maybe little too tight postflop but can that be so bad???

Well clearly this style ain’t working. My money goes to players who play 35-45 and are über agg. So clearly they are playing the better style for SH.

Any tips how to win in 1/2?
For example today I was playing with players that took the showdown if they had any pair or A-high and I lost ~40BB. How do you beat these guys? Waiting for good hands don’t work because top pair don’t hold up against 4 players (at least not mine tp).
The stats were:
60/22
67/0
88/15
40/4
45/3

OK, if you have no reads, how do you play against them?

I have friends here (in 2+2) and other places that say 1/2 is really pain in the ass! One mate tried 1/2 for awhile, went busted. Moved to 3/6 and is printing money after many thousands of hands. Or course you would think that the higher the limit, better the players. Maybe they don’t chase so much. Chasing makes these microgames so high variance. And of course, if they chase without the odds it is good for you in the long run! But in the long run we are all dead! Would like some profits BEFORE that. If I am honest, I don’t really that way. If I can’t win here, I can’t win in higher limits.

Should I stop playing SH and try full tables for awhile? Many good players here have said that SH is so different ballgame. Maybe I just don’t know how to beat it? Anyway, I am not gonna play in 1/2 anymore. I will take a shot in 2/4 or 3/6 and see how it goes.

If anyone here has played against me, tell me what you think. My screenname is kakkuli.

About the stats:
I posted stats after 10000 hands and you all told me to be more agg postflop and specially the river. It is still low but hey, it was 1.08 in 10000 hands ago so I have been more agg. Other streets have also improved.

Lately my blind play has been improving, thanks to POKHERLH but I guess that is still a leak.

The funniest thing is that everyone is saying that you don’t even have to be smart at win micros. Even a dog can do it, LOL I don’t want to believe that I have IQ less than the dog [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And please don’t say 20000 hands are nothing. I have worked my ass of to get these hands. Played like a zillion hours. Had 2594 fights with my gf and with my neighbors (I yell and scream due to bad beats in the middle of the night). They definitely are worth something. And yep, I have paid $1000 in rake!! I am a fool!





ready for surprise ending?? My graph:

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I play tight pf. Raise my good hands. Used to isolate LAGs but it won’t work because no one after me is folding. ... I do not semibluff because no one is gonna fold. I just valuebet.

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Hi Rock-

I've pulled out a few sections of your post that demonstrate why you might be having a problem. Just because the fishy players don't fold when you're trying to isolate doesn't mean it's a bad play - you just need to make sure you're isolating with cards that have some showdown value.

Same goes with semibluffing. If they are 100 % never folding, then yeah, semibluffing is incorrect. But that's not the case, even at the fishfest that is 1/2. People fold, and they do so incorrectly all the time. They will also notice over time when you're a player who "bets on the come" as one 10/20 player snipped at me after I'd taken down a pot in a live game a few months ago. This is great for your table image because you'll get terrific action with your made hands and monsters as well as your draws. Occasionally, you may even get a free card on the turn! Stranger things have happened.

As to the numbers: If you aren't stealing at least 35 % of the time, you're missing the boat. It will really help get your PFR up higher (16 at least, man, even with your low VPIP.) On first glance it appears your button play is a percentage point too low at minimum - it should definitely be higher PFR than the CO.

As for the blinds - this is a big leak. Get your BB defense to 60 % instead of 68%, and start posting marginal hands where you had to make a tough decision on the SB. Losing .12 BB is still a big amount on the SB.

Good luck! I'm going through the same problem at 5/10 right now so I sympathize :-(

[mackthefork]

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Losing .12 BB is still a big amount on the SB.


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Losing 0.25 in both blinds is about right, around 0.09 and 0.16.

Mack

[PokerSparky]

On top of what people said about blind defense, it appears you're a bit tight passive preflop for 6 max.

It also appears you don't value bet the river enough as well.

Edit: Post some hands.

[mackthefork]

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On top of what people said about blind defense, it appears you're a bit tight passive preflop for 6 max.


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Just done a quick calc, if he could fix that blind problem he would be 283 dollars better off, which would make his win rate around 1.1 BB/100, assuming he isn't simply running bad (which it doesn't look like to me).

Mack

[spydog]

Checkraise of .77% ????? That's horrible. This should be around 2%. Most of your checkraises will come from SB completes and BB protection where you hit the flop. If you are too afraid to checkraise OOP then adding more hands to your BB defense is only going to hurt you. Against liberal blind stealers, make sure you are checkraising most flops where you make:

1) Pair or better
2) OESD
3) 4-flush
4) Strong gutshots where your pair outs are likely good and villian has missed if holding Ax. For example, T9o on a Q76 board.

[kidcolin]

good post, spy

You are weak tight.

[imported_leader]

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I play tight pf. Raise my good hands. Used to isolate LAGs but it won’t work because no one after me is folding.

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You're logic is wrong here. Basically you're assuming that you isolate just to get everyone else to fold. You should be isolating for value. And it's not just LAGs if a loose player limps you should open up as well. You should almost never overlimp one loose player.

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I play middle pair if the pot is big and I have the odds to call OR if HU then I don’t need so big of odds.

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Middle pair isn't a draw. It's a made hand, and often the best hand. It's usually weak so you need to protect it. In small pots, bet out. In large pots, check and see. If it gets back to you either, raise or call.

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UI overcards I usually check/fold unless against < 3 opponents and then when the board is “safe”.

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Too simplistic and too weak IMO

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I do not semibluff because no one is gonna fold

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It's not possible that you're losing in a game where no one ever folds. You're overstating here. Given the right read, weak-tight, you should be semi-bluffing.

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So pretty solid preflop and postlfop.

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Really you aren't. You're way too weak.

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Any tips how to win in 1/2?

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Don't convince yourself that 1/2 is the problem here. The idea that you're style would play better at a higher limit is just wrong. You would get creamed and run over.

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I have friends here (in 2+2) and other places that say 1/2 is really pain in the ass!

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Well here's one that thinks that 1/2 is easier then 3/6.

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Maybe they don’t chase so much. Chasing makes these microgames so high variance.

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You mean positive variance? lol

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And of course, if they chase without the odds it is good for you in the long run! But in the long run we are all dead! Would like some profits BEFORE that.

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What?

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Should I stop playing SH and try full tables for awhile? Many good players here have said that SH is so different ballgame. Maybe I just don’t know how to beat it? Anyway, I am not gonna play in 1/2 anymore. I will take a shot in 2/4 or 3/6 and see how it goes.

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Bad idea IMO, but maybe you'll run well and improve you're game at the same time. Though it's far more likely that you'll run crappy or average and think the site is rigged.

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The funniest thing is that everyone is saying that you don’t even have to be smart at win micros.

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Weak tight is a losing strategy in all but the most passive games.

On to the stats:

You're not VPiP'ing enough 22-26 would be better.
You're too tight in the SB. Should be over 30
You're BB defense is abysmal. Below 60% close to 50 would be ideal, but you could survive if you just got it near 60% for now. HU defense should be lower too.
You need to steal more. “Stealing” is actually a bad word for what you need to do. You need to value raise more in steal positions.
PFR of 12 is terrible. If you want money, you need to get it to 16.
You're checking too much after a PFR suck it up and bet please
You need to be more LAG post flop. You need to raise instead of call. You need to bet instead of check. You need to call instead of fold. You're AF's aren't that bad the problem is that everything that makes up AF is skewed lower.

Position stats:
You suck in the blinds. It's hash but it's true. Do you seriously believe that you should only be raising the top 4% of hand in the BB? How about 7% in the BB? They should both be double at least.

[Surfbullet]

Hey therockofgibraltar,

It sounds like that you have accumulated some poker knowledge, but your thinking sounds a little fuzzy as to how and why we are able to show a profit at hold'em.

Players who chase too much are a godsend. I scour the 15/30 and 20/40 tables to sit 3handed with a 65/5/.5 fish. If you are feeling stymied because "noone ever folds" you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, so to speak. Semibluffing loses its value; multiway you should be pumping your draws when you have an equity advantage (see flopped nut flush draw in 4+ handed pot) and drawing as cheaply as your opponents' allow (see flopped gutshot + over in 4+ handed pot).

Additionally, hands like 2nd pair, or a PP above 3rd pair, become worthy candidates for value-betting all 3 streets, most notably when you are heads-up or 3way against complete calling stations. They'll call with any pair, and sometimes A-hi, and once-in-a-blue-moon Q-hi? GREAT! Bet 99 on a KJ762 river HU vs a mega calling station...he'll call with 33 and A6 and sometimes AT!

Your biggest troubles seem to stem from your approach to the game. When you bet the flop + turn HU, get to the river, and the passive fish donkbets you + shows a rivered gutshot, BE HAPPY. The fact that this happens proves WITHOUT A DOUBT that you played winning poker that hand. Use this to fuel your intellectual energies to putting in more hands...since you're playing well then you just have to start getting to the long run (for more on "the long run" see Krishanleong's "downswing post" on the main page right now).

You can do it. 1/2 is beatable...you have to learn to beat it to understand why you win at poker. Once you TRULY understand that you can move up, and apply what you know. Making people fold doesn't get you to winning poker. I know how to fold, and we could play heads-up all day and you wouldn't show 1/100th the profit you earn from these goons. Good luck.

Surf