SNG Loser. Help!

[AceRat138]

I play very close to the aleomagnus guidelines. Before I read the aleomagnus guide I was playing only AA, KK, QQ, and JJ in the first three levels and then loosening up to my normal ring game strategy after that. Using this strategy I was about 25% in the money with a negative ROI. Using aleomagnus, I improved to 30% in the money, but my ROI is still in the red.

My problem is that when it gets down to 4-5 people at the table I am always either the short stack or close to it and the blinds are so high at this point that I am forced to play cards that are way less than average. If I am called once in an attempt to steal the blinds, I usually lose. If I get lucky and double up at this point, I always make the money but this is only happening about 20% of the time (The other 10% of my wins come from doubling early on and using my big stack to bully smaller stacks at the table). What do you do to combat this situation? I have tried loosening up early on to build a big stack, but that seems to be just as risky if not more risky than the strategy I am imploying now. Suggestions?

[beeyjay]

don't loosen up early on. Be extremely aggressive on the bubble before you get too low that somebody has to call you.
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(The other 10% of my wins come from doubling early on and using my big stack to bully smaller stacks at the table).

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This sounds like it could be a leak. If you double up early you should still wait til the blinds get big to start bullying. I have seen soo many people catch a few big hands and get a mountain of chips only to bleed them away for the rest of the tourney.

Its possible you're getting unlucky I have no idea how many games you have played. However its important to remember that guide doesn't play for you. Its meant to be a guide not an absolute truth in every situation. It sounds like youre just starting out in which case youre lucky to have that guide to follow but it still might take some time to become a winning player. Read the hands posted here and post some of your own. Don't lose hope.

[AceRat138]

Should you try to steal with any two cards or wait for above average hands?

[dfscott]

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Should you try to steal with any two cards or wait for above average hands?

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It depends on how short you are, your position, and just how bad the hands are (pretty much in that order). It's hard to provide a hand and fast rule.

I was in your shoes about 2-3 months ago, so I understand your frustration. Having someone review an entire tournament history will help. I'm not an expert, but I am a winning player, so I can probably give you some tips that will likely improve your game. PM me if you're interested.

[beeyjay]

old people wear them as diapers.

[tech]

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my normal ring game strategy after that.

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This will get you killed in a SNG. It sounds like you really need to work on your blind stealing. Read the threads in the FAQ about blind stealing and bubble play. That is the most important skill in the Party SNGs, IMO.

[Blarg]

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I play very close to the aleomagnus guidelines. Before I read the aleomagnus guide I was playing only AA, KK, QQ, and JJ in the first three levels and then loosening up to my normal ring game strategy after that. Using this strategy I was about 25% in the money with a negative ROI. Using aleomagnus, I improved to 30% in the money, but my ROI is still in the red.

My problem is that when it gets down to 4-5 people at the table I am always either the short stack or close to it and the blinds are so high at this point that I am forced to play cards that are way less than average. If I am called once in an attempt to steal the blinds, I usually lose. If I get lucky and double up at this point, I always make the money but this is only happening about 20% of the time (The other 10% of my wins come from doubling early on and using my big stack to bully smaller stacks at the table). What do you do to combat this situation? I have tried loosening up early on to build a big stack, but that seems to be just as risky if not more risky than the strategy I am imploying now. Suggestions?

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I'm prefacing what I say by noting that I'm extremely inexperienced, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm trying to be helpful, but it would be hard to find someone with less experience than I have in SNG's.

That said, I found myself in the same position as you were, and it was frustrating. I had Aleo's guide, but I was losing. The funny thing was, before I started using it, when I played casually at rare intervals, I was winning! Anyway, when I won after checking out Aleo's guide, it was almost always 3rds, since I didn't know anything about heads-up(HU) play or ITM(in the money) play, and because I didn't know much about bubble play. Almost never a first.

I think Aleo's guide is very good, but just a starting point. I think the first thing you have to do is improve your aggression.

Look up threads talking about the 10 BB rule. There was one up on the first page here just yesterday that was excellent. This will encourage you to take risks pushing and feel better about them. Risk is inescapable in SNG's, and the way the math works, even with a bad hand, your return on average for taking certain risks is so high that you're just simply worse off not taking them. You have to fight hard in SNG's, not be passive, or you will be blinded away or else come into the money with such a small stack that you're not the threat you should be.

At the bubble, and ITM, getting great cards is nice, but it doesn't happen much, and when it does, often doesn't happen when you really need it to happen. Yet, to stay alive and have a chance at winning, you're going to have to steal regardless.

This means you're going to have some tourneys where you get quickly bounced out holding garbage. Knowing that used to inhibit me so much that I never got any first places. I would feel like a fool getting bounced out stealing with crap. Later I realized that's just the name of the game, and that if I didn't want to steal with crap, I had better just find another form of poker. Because you don't always get good cards, and don't always get paid off when you do.

And when winning blinds works, whether it's stealing with bad or indifferent hands or pushing good hands hard for value or deception, the pay-off is huge. Blinds become so crushing that they're worth a lot to you, and contrarily you take a significant hit to your prospects when your opponents get to keep them.

So you can't afford not to play tough, and what looks a little crazy sometimes. Last night, a player called me "thief," and then gave me his big blind anyway. As we both knew he would. He was right, of course. I held crap. But it takes a vastly stronger hand to call with than to bet with. He was probably correct to fold a better hand than I held rather than risk the whole tourney calling my push only to find out I really did have a good hand.

Also critical is that even if he had the best hand, he could still lose by being outdrawn. How much risk is too much? How much of a pay-off is there really by calling with less than decent hands when someone is pushing all his chips at you in a potential blind steal? Compare the risk you are taking doing that to the profit-making opportunities you might have on the very next round to be the one doing the pushing yourself, forcing the other guy probably to fold if he's smart. And who knows, when it comes to be your turn to be the thief doing the pushing, perhaps you won't be a thief after all. You might be pushing with a nice pair, or AK or something. Or you yourself might be the one caught but sucking out on the other guy anyway.

Of course, you might run into a monster hand and get beaten while holding junk, or even while holding your own monster hand. But you're no more at risk of that happening to you than anyone else is, over the long term. In the short term, you might lose time after time, but only a few successful pushes could put you in a position to win the whole tourney. So as risky as it is, you just can't afford not to be aggressive when the blinds get big.

That doesn't mean you don't chose your spots, though. There is no way to have perfect knowledge on what to do, since the cards always change, and so do the opponents, and so does the way any one opponent plays -- based partly on how many previous steal attempts he's seen from you or others, etc.

But you can try to tilt the odds in your favor. It's always smart to write notes on people with low calling standards or strange behavior so you'll know where the best places are to take your shots. It's especially helpful to see how zealous people are about their blinds. Make note of people who defend their blinds with absolute crap, especially if they do so for large bets. You can make a lot of money off these people, but they can call all your bluff raises too and bounce your right out of the game. Pay special attention to people who don't care what their kickers are if they have a high card, or who fancy almost anything suited; these people will also call far too much when it counts. You need to know that when the blinds become big and it's time to start stealing attempts.

If you can't get this information from watching others play out hands you're not involved in, it also sometimes pays off, in terms of both stack size and knowledge, to find out yourself by trying some probing raises long before the blinds become critical, just based on your position. If a little bit of cheap testing in the first few levels reveals that a guy is so jealous of his blinds he'll call with 7-5 offsuit just because he doesn't want to lose a small or big blind, you've gained valuable info. If on the other hand, you see someone folding every blind, he could just have terrible cards every time, but then again, maybe not. When the blinds get big, you could make a lot of money auto-raising him with nothing. And depending on your read, you could safely fold on a guy like this losing a minimum of chips, knowing he probably holds a monster.

I think what you've got to do once you've got Aleo's basic concepts under your belt is be selectively, but actively aggressive. Play the stack sizes as if they were a hand full of cards on their own. Be a bully with your chips. That's what they're there for. Actively seek out weakness and exploit it. A player told me the other day, even though I hadn't said a word and usually don't talk in tourneys, "I hate players like you." Who cares? I took it as a compliment.

Playing more aggressively this way, you will get busted out of a lot of tournaments earlier than a smart, cautious player might. The thing is, most of those places you could have finished in if you had been more passive or waited a little longer for a better opportunity are not the paying places. Forcing people to abandon their blinds might get you a lot more 4th's, but it will also get you many more 1st places. And you only need a very few more 1st places every once in a while to totally turn your game around.

[Al P]

So if you have a pair of 4's on the button and 5 people limp in on level 1 you fold?

i'm not sure what the guide says...was going off your "old" standards.

[AceRat138]

Since this post I have gone from a -ROI to +23%. The aggressiveness on the bubble is all I was lacking in my game. It's strange, if you try not to bubble by tightening up (which is what seems natural) you lose and if you loosen up you win...Thanks for the advice! 100 games logged at 41% ITM.

[Michael C.]

Congrats on the turnaround. Yes, being agressive on the bubble is important. It's also possible you just had an unlucky 100 SNGs and now are having an upswing. Stuff like that happens to me all the time...