The Calibre Of Ace-King...? (Suited or Unsuited)

Now this is probably a still a big debate in poker today... well it is. But I want to look at Ace-King from a different prespective.

In tournament play, against an all-in bet say, is it always right to call with A-K (suited or not) if you know your NOT up against wired kings or aces? Because the argument is, if you're not your always getting about a coin-flip, and in some cases you will be dominating lower aces or kings.

Your thoughts please? And would your answer change for a multi-table tournament, as to a single-table tournament? And would the size of chips in both yours and your opponents posession be relevant, plus the stage of the tournament, and the blinds etc...

Regards,

The Prawn

[DWarrior]

This is a pretty unrealistic question, but here it goes:

If you know for a fact that you're not up against AA or KK, then it's always right to call because even a coinflip situation is +EV due to the blinds, unless you're talking real deep stacks.

The depth of stacks is usually what skews the opponent's hand range upwards, a 10xBB all-in has a ridiculous range while a 100xBB all-in is AA, KK, AKs, QQ, at that point you really can't dismiss AA and KK.

No difference between MTT and SNG, but there is a time when it's a fold in a Satellite, where it's really all about survival, not chip accumulation.

Blessed is Slick for theirs is the Kingdom of Pots to come:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.7075 % 60.30% 03.41% { AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 36.2925 % 32.88% 03.41% { QQ-88,
ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

This is a wide range, AND assuming you are not up against AA or KK.

It would be a call but you HAVE to keep in mind DWarriors point: 'there is a time when its a fold in a Satellite, where its really about survival, not accumulation'.

[ QUOTE ]
Blessed is Slick for theirs is the Kingdom of Pots to come:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.7075 % 60.30% 03.41% { AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 36.2925 % 32.88% 03.41% { QQ-88,
ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

This is a wide range, AND assuming you are not up against AA or KK.

It would be a call but you HAVE to keep in mind DWarriors point: 'there is a time when its a fold in a Satellite, where its really about survival, not accumulation'.

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Your range in this example is far too wide and greatly skews the results. If you narrow it down to only underpairs it becomes much more of a coinflip situation where AK ranges from being a slight underdog at 46:54 to an even flip. I don't think your range is very realistic for most players. I certainly wouldn't use that range very often in my calculations. When you do start to include dominated Aces and Kings in your range it does help AK a large amount. Simply including the top 10% of hands, minus AA and KK, it becomes 60:40 in favor of AK and becomes much more of a favorite as you add more hands into the range.

The size of blinds and antes also has an effect, as well as any dead money in the pot. Add in a bit of dead money and large blinds and antes and this becomes very much +EV.

[11t]

AK is a hand that is very powerful when you are first into the pot. It is also a good re-raising hand. However, there are many times in SNG's where it is proper to fold AK.

FWIW I basically try my best to not call my stack off against a weak tight player with AK since racing PP's will kill you in the long term.

However, broad generalizations are never true in poker so take what I said with a grain of salt I guess. AK is a very tricky hand and must be played in different ways in relation to your stack size/feel for the table.

[Art Vandelay]

If you could somehow totally discount these hands then assuming there are blinds and antes in the pot I'd guess your pot odds would justify a call in pretty much 100% of cases.

I do not know how you can totally disregard AA and KK however.

Edit: I've folded AK before the flop in MTT and it is not that difficult a scenario to see play out.

I have let AK go a few times, rarely preflop, but last night I ran into players who absolutely refused to let big slick die. Each time, they decided to slow play, I would flop TP, they C-bet and I push, only once did I lose because eash time I pushed, they called with no thought what so ever. Each time I pushed it was an overbet to the pot.

[winky51]

[ QUOTE ]
AK is a hand that is very powerful when you are first into the pot. It is also a good re-raising hand. However, there are many times in SNG's where it is proper to fold AK.

AK is a very tricky hand and must be played in different ways in relation to your stack size/feel for the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I prefer calling a raise when in position and reraising out of position. But this depends on the PF raiser.

If you reraise OOP the only hands calling you there have you beat already I think so flop play becomes easier (any pair). And if some donk calls with AQ all the better.

In position I feel you will be getting the odds to hit a pair vs most hands. Also hands like AQ, AJ, will pay you off. Consider MP2 raised 3x you cold call, all fold. You getting 3:5.5 considering the blinds. Now the flop comes with an A or K and the OOP MP2 raiser usually makes a continuation bet of 30-55% of the pot if he has a pair under. Well right there you are getting the price for the preflop call considering you hit a pair 1 in 3. I think more times than not you will face AQ, AJ than AA and KK also. The cold call also makes the other player wonder what you have? I feel more times than not players feel if you had AK you'd reraise preflop so they tend more to think you don't have it. A cold call in position players usually place you on a small to medium pair. This is from my experience in live tournaments. I am always asking questions like "what did you think I had?"

As for all ins. If I have 10,000 chips with blinds of 100/200 and joe shmoe raises my stack... go ahead and take it. Why should I risk my stack in that position. All in calls with AK really depend on who, why, where, when, and how much of your stack.

Am I wrong in my thinking?

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Am I wrong in my thinking?

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Not at all. I didn't expand any further in my post because, honestly, this topic has been beaten to death on this forum already and really doesn't deserve another thread.

And here I go contributing to the madness....

Depends on a lot of things, M, postion of raiser, how many in, how many callers, etc..... It's not a yes/no answer