Re-stealing

[Kirkrrr]

This has been the one area in my game that hasn't developed as well as the others, so I'm putting it up here and hope to hear some strategies and thought processes:

Assuming 20-30BB stacks:
1)Do you base it on the raiser? Position? Chips Count?

2) Do your cards even matter? i.e. do you consider putting him on a range and determine that you're at worst a coinflip against it, or do you simply realize that there's a high chance he's on a steal and do it with any two? (more'n'likely it's going to be a comibnation of the above)

3) This actually goes back to stack sizes. At 20-30 and above, if you re-raise, how much (assuming the OR has roughly even number of chips)? What if your opponent is a short stack? Big stack?

I'm sure there's many more situations but I think this is enough if anyone's interested in discussing.

Kirk

Edit: also posting in STT as it's just as applicable.

[schwza]

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Do your cards even matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. it's wayyyy better to resteal 76s or 22 than 73o. people underestimate how much better 76s is than 73o.

[woodguy]

Rarely will I enter a pot after it has been open raised, just to re-steal.

I usually like to have good position, and a hand that can flop big (see schwza's 76>>>73)

I also like to have the open raiser outstacked, or a very good read that they fold to pressure.

Or I like to have a good hand.

Rarely will I chuck a bunch of chips at the pot with 20-30BB's just to steal from an open raiser, without a rocksold read or the conditions described above........with 8-12BB's however I can jam preflop on a pure steal.

Regards,
Woodguy

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
very good read that they fold to pressure.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is nice, but i'll settle for "they haven't done anything obviously stupid-LAG and they're opening a ton of pots."

[nightlyraver]

I have the most success in this area against players who vary the size of their opening raises according to their strength and position. For example, some players open for a small raise from EP or EMP with hands that cannot stand a re-raise - like AT,KQ,55,etc. Assuming that Villian will in fact fold to a re-raise (pay attention!) you can try popping him from LP or the blinds with a hand like 87s, for example. In fact, once the size of the raise puts Villian on that range, a hand like 87s is probably still 40% to win. Therefore, Villian need only fold a relatively small amount of the time to make you a favorite to take down the pot. Another example that I can think of are those super-aggressive players who will stick in a raise with a huge range when it is folded around to them in LP. I'll sometimes stick in a decent RR with anything decent.

[Kirkrrr]

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Do your cards even matter?


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yes. it's wayyyy better to resteal 76s or 22 than 73o. people underestimate how much better 76s is than 73o.


[/ QUOTE ]

In this, there's the underlying assumption that you'll get called. I've always assumed (and tried to make it so) that when I re-steal, I do it only when I'm pretty sure I'm NOT going to get called, i.e. (like you mentioned) going for a resteal if I have seen that player open more pots then should be his fair share - then you can assume that he does it with a much wider range, and cannot stand a re-raise.

Kirk

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Do your cards even matter?


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yes. it's wayyyy better to resteal 76s or 22 than 73o. people underestimate how much better 76s is than 73o.


[/ QUOTE ]

In this, there's the underlying assumption that you'll get called. I've always assumed (and tried to make it so) that when I re-steal, I do it only when I'm pretty sure I'm NOT going to get called, i.e. (like you mentioned) going for a resteal if I have seen that player open more pots then should be his fair share - then you can assume that he does it with a much wider range, and cannot stand a re-raise.

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]

you can only assume it's likely he can't call a reraise. if he has AK, he's going to raise, and then he's going to call your push. if that happens, it's better to have 67s than 73o. that doesn't mean you should never reraise with 73o - it might be that both are +EV and 67s is just a little more +EV.

[Augie]

This is probably not optimal, and one should always try to know the players at your table, etc., etc., but here are some loose guidelines that I've been using lately that seem to help me decide when to resteal.

I'm assuming a Stars tourney format, and I'm also only considering situations when you are in the BB, and the raiser has opened from the SB, button, CO, or CO+1. If the raiser has opened in a position earlier than CO+1, I do not consider restealing with weaker hands.

1. Your stack, and the stack of the raiser, need to be relatively deep, but not too deep: if one of you is sitting with 10-15 BBs then a resteal has less folding equity because it often is correct for him to call based on pot odds. Also, if both of you are among the chip leaders, it is probably wise to avoid a confrontation, unless you have a premium hand (you are OOP, and with a lot of chips you can afford to wait for a better spot). So, I like it when each of you has between 20 and 40 BBs.

2. The blinds are meaningful. In Stars tourneys this is usually when the antes have begun, especially starting with the 200-400 w/ante level and beyond.

3. This is the raisers 1st play at taking your blind. In other words, if he has not open raised your BB previously, I let the 1st one go. Basically, I am giving myself a chance to get some kind of line on my opponents play. Example: Button raises the 1st time, I fold. The next orbit it is folded to him on the button . . . his action now will tell me something (albeit in a very general sense) about his play. If he folds, well, he must have some kind of minimum hand range for raising the blinds. If he raises again, it is more likely that he may think he has found an open cookie jar (we folded last time, perhaps we will again), so I go through my guidelines and make a decision.

Often, I can't meet the criteria for a resteal on the 2nd raise, so I fold again. By the time he raises a 3rd time, I can be fairly certain he isn't on big hands every time, and the resteal has a good chance of success. Also, the blinds have usually been raised, so if I gave up a 400 BB and a 600 BB, and then resteal at the 400-800 level, I will likely win about 2400 in chips when successful, more than making up for the other blinds I gave up.

4. Your hand: after thinking about 1,2,3, I consider my hand strength. I'm sort of flexible here though. I think others have spoken about how it is better to have 76s, than A8o, because of the chance of being dominated, and I agree with this.

However, I consider #3 when taking into account my hand selection - if a guy has stolen from me 4 times in a row, and I meet 1,2,3 above, then it might be a good time to resteal with anything. Conversely, if this is a guys 2nd steal attempt, I will not steal with 73o, I need a suited connector, or something of value. (I am not considering when you actually pick up a real hand in the BB, such as AK, because then the other criteria in this post don't really matter as much - you will end up playing on hand strength alone).

These are very loose guidelines, I know, but this is what I have been using, with decent success. Of course, go with your reads, watch your players, you can often pick up on who will fold to a big reraise and who will not. Guidelines are not a magic formula.

Another thought: keep in mind guideline #3 is very subjective, and that by watching the table, you should be able to pick up on players patterns a lot more quickly than by just paying attention to who is stealing your blinds. Perhaps player X has stolen the BB of the guy to your right 5 times now, but hasn't made a play at your blinds (because there has always been someone else open raising before it got to him), but now tries to steal when it is folded to him . . . well, this is his 1st steal attempt on you, but you know how he is playing and should act accordingly.

Hope this post makes sense, and is helpful in some way. Please point out any flaws in my thinking - I'm not an expert by any means.

Be good,

Augie

[Augie]

Another thought regarding my 3rd criteria and how it isn't a formula to be followed by rote.

If I guy steals my BB the 1st time, and then the next 2-3 times he has a chance to steal and doesn't, I can be confident that the 1st steal was some kind of real hand. So when he finally puts in another raise in the same position, I treat it as steal attempt #1 and go from there. Don't just count the # of attempts, keep in mind the # of times he had the opportunity and didn't take it.

As I said in the last post, criteria 3 is very subjective. Keep in mind that some players play the same way all the time, and others will open up their game, or tighten up, as the tournament progresses. It pays to know how everyone is playing, what their standard lines are, and if/when they change gears. Keeping notes helps a lot.

Be good,

Augie