Paying the donkey? Or playing the donkey?

Sam T. · #1 10-06-2005, 10:59 PM

What do you do in this situation? 5-table SnG on Stars. Hero is in 3rd place, and pretty comfortable. Table, as you see is shorthanded.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero (t7360)
MP (t7220)
CO (t4370)
Button (t7350)
SB (t8030)
BB (t3280)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t600, 2 folds, Button calls t600, 2 folds.

Flop: (t1325) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t900, Button calls t900.

At this point I'm thinking weak ace that he can't let go of, trapping AK, or flush draw. 

Turn: (t3125) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t2000, Button calls t2000.

Well, then. Is he slow-playing a monster? 

River: (t7125) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero isn't too happy with this card. What's your move here? You've each got about t3800 left behind.

Sam T. · #2 10-07-2005, 09:42 AM

Bump for the AM crowd. Too tough a decision? Too easy? Seems like it's something that will come up from time to time.

schwza · #3 10-07-2005, 10:56 AM

is villain a donkey? what's the pay structure for 5-table?

rwanger · #4 10-07-2005, 11:11 AM

Check and hope he doesn't push.

You may have to call a bet from him on the river though. Some people will probably suggest a block bet, but with 7.5k in the pot, you'd have to bet 2k or so, which would commit you to calling a raise.

The only way you aren't behind here is if he had a weaker Ace. AK, a set, and diamonds all have you beat.

Be wary of getting involved like this against one of the few players who can bust you. Although, then again, your stack isn't THAT big compared to the rest of the table.

Based on how he has been playing, you'll have to think about this:
If you check and he pushes, are you going to call?

If yes, then you might as well push yourself, since he'll probably call with a weaker Ace, but doesn't really have any reasonable drawing hands that missed and he'd have to bluff with.

This is not an enviable spot.

If you check and he pushes, you're getting over 3:1 right? It's going to be hard to lay that down, because if you win, you'll probably lead the tourney. If you fold, you'll have 15BB's.

You might have been better off playing the earlier streets differently. What about pushing the turn? He very well might call with a weaker Ace. He probably won't call on a draw. He'll call if he has you beat, but you were going to have a hard time getting away if you you were beat anyway.

If you ignore stack sizes, you bet the hand just fine. Considering the sizes though, you probably would have been better off keeping the pot smaller (smaller bet on the turn, although that unfortunately looks weak and he might make a play), or commit yourself earlier in the hand, because really, at this stage of the tournament, you're probably going to have to assume that AQ is good in this spot. Don't give yourself a chance to make a mistake on the river (by folding the best hand, or calling after he hits his flush).

PFrese · #5 10-07-2005, 12:01 PM

Why not bet larger on the flop to reduce his odds to draw to his flush Maybe 2x the pot? Yes you are making the pot bigger, but he has to make a bigger call, reducing his odds on the flop.

If he calls that bigger bet, then you can definitely put him on an Ace or Set. Now it is up to you to decide what happens on the turn. Me - I might bet 2x pot on the flop and then push on the turn. If he is going to draw to his flush, it will cost him everything. If he has a set, oops... If he has AK, well the rail is nice...

Tough hand actually. I hate cold callers...

rockythecat99 · #6 10-07-2005, 12:09 PM

I really don't think he is calling with a flush draw here. I smell a weak ace here. AJ-A9 sooted. I need more info though because he could have a hand like 98s. How laggish is villain? Is he really a donkey. If he is I am pushing here and expecting to get called by Ax.

Sam T. · #7 10-07-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is villain a donkey? what's the pay structure for 5-table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on what he's calling with. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Payouts start at seventh for 1.5 times the buy in (this was a $10+1), and top out at $140 or so.

SixgunSam · #8 10-07-2005, 12:43 PM

If he was drawing with the 98 he hit on the turn, if he was drawing with the flush or 45 he hit on the river. Flush seems a little less likely, unless he had the KQ because the ace is on the board, but you never know. A lot of that comes down to what I observed from him earlier. Would he call with top pair? I'm checking the river and hoping that he checks behind. I hate putting any more money into this pot because you still have some life with 3k and I feel like you could be facing a big hand here. If I didn't have a read I would feel I was beaten against a competent player because about the only hand I'm ahead of is AJ.

Sam T. · #9 10-07-2005, 03:48 PM

In response to the suggestion that I bet 2x the pot, I couldn't disagree more. I'm giving him incorrect odds to call with a draw (if that's what he's on), and every time he accepts those odds I make money. If I blow him out of the hand, I'm going to be leaving a lot of chips on the table.

As for pushing the turn, again, that's a huge overbet. The t2000 bet made it clearly incorrect for him to call if only he is drawing to either flush. If my opponents want to draw without proper odds, all I can say is "God Bless America!"

Once the three hit, I had a hell of a time thinking of a hand that I was ahead of here. AJ? A9? KK or QQ if he's just dumb as a stump? (I'm not ruling any of these out - it was a $10. I've seen people fall in love with lower pockets than QQ.)

I checked, he pushed...I called.

To nobody's surprise he showed K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Given his passivity early, I should have at least considered a fold. As it was, the pot was too big (3:1 on my call) and the blinds too high for me not to call.

Someone else at the table asked him why he would make such bad decisions, and he said, "I decided to go for it." There are so many things wrong with that statement.

rwanger · #10 10-07-2005, 04:03 PM

I still say that if you were going to call his push, you should have pushed yourself on the river. Otherwise, he checks when behind and you miss out on some chips.

Also, his call on the turn was pretty reasonable. He was risking 2000 to win (an implied) 9150...assuming you call him all-in on the river.

He thinks he has 12 outs (he actually has 11), which makes him slightly more than a 3:1 dog. He's getting over 4.5:1.

Even if he knew you had a set, he still has 10 outs, which makes him almost 22% hit. And if I were him, I'd be almost certain of taking some (if not all) of your chips on the river.

Correct me if I'm wrong..