Big stacks put wayfare to the test

[BobboFitos]

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So you put him on a better king? Yet he didn't raise preflop? And he didn't raise the flop?

Dubious.

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I wouldn't raise KJ or KQ out of the blinds, so not raising preflop doesn't mean your T kicker is good.

But true, fishy that a top pair hand doesn't lead out or checkraise the board (especially when you bet last to act on the flop, any king should try to snap off enticing pot odds if he calls)

So that means he in fact has a draw or a stronger hand. I'll give you that.

On this board he could have a weak draw like A4, A5, 56 (three very unlikely but not implausible)
Or an obv flush draw, (so perhaps two unders to the king) or NFD.
Or maybe 45 for oesd.

Or pair plus flushdraw (here like KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something which has you crushed)

A set posisble, I'll agree KK is very very unliekly, and I dont like seeing monsters so the % that a set would play that flop so slowly is low, but still possible. So 33 and 22, throw them in.

Or, if villain is loose to call a min raise, K3 suited, k2 suited, or 23 suited are possible. But the two pair hands are unlikely.

So taking thjis into consideration I like your turn bet. It's very likely you're ahead, and very likely he's drawing. So time to get value vs the draws.

But then he min raises the turn; this is NOT a semibluff. Occaisonally you'll see fairly tricky players checkraising all in with a draw on the turn, but this wasn't an all in, it was a min raise. (BTW, should note that if you felt your K was best on the turn, you should've put him in, as if a draw misses unless they WILL bluff the resat you wont get anything, whereas if it hits you might've paid off anyways.)

Would a K w/ horrid kicker commit this much on the turn? Unlikely. So that narrows his holdings to the improbable two pair or a set.

What are you putting him on? I really hate seeing monsters under the bed, but I dont like your turn play.

[MathProf]

I think there are a lot of hands he could have that beat you..
the better kings AK, KJ, KQ any one of which could be called preflop at Party..A3 and 22 are also possible. KK is not likely. I think there are very few he could have that you beat. Why would a flush draw or K9 min reraise?

[Wayfare]

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I think there are a lot of hands he could have that beat you..
the better kings AK, KJ, KQ any one of which could be called preflop at Party..A3 and 22 are also possible. KK is not likely. I think there are very few he could have that you beat. Why would a flush draw or K9 min reraise?

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The reason why they minraise is because the board paired and because people don't like calling minraises on the turn because they think it's a monster. Here is how I look at it:

Pot is $71, and it is $16 to me. I have position. There is a good chance this guy will bluff with a missed draw if that is in fact what happens on the river. I do not believe strong kings play this way at all. I just do not believe that AK or KQ or KJ will often make this play on this board. They will min raise the flop, or just bet it.

One thing that I also didn't mention, but should have, is that he insta min raised me after insta calling the flop. Now, going back to the pot:

If he misses his draw, there is a good chance I can get a large amount of money off of him by taking a long time to call the turn min raise. If a diamond comes off I can get away with no more money put into the pot. If he gives up on a bluff, like many people will when they min raise the turn and are called, I make huge expectation with this call.

Out of position I would have folded.

[Wayfare]

He had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG.

The turn play is debatable, but it is not a good idea to fold to any minraise unless you are full. There are so many possible hands on this board that will do that to you, taking away a $71 pot with a $16 raise. If you let people do that to you every time without the nuts, even in position, you are asking to get run over at 6-max. Realize that you have another street to play and that you have implied odds on the other guy while giving away very little yourself.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
He had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG.

The turn play is debatable, but it is not a good idea to fold to any minraise unless you are full. There are so many possible hands on this board that will do that to you, taking away a $71 pot with a $16 raise. If you let people do that to you every time without the nuts, even in position, you are asking to get run over at 6-max. Realize that you have another street to play and that you have implied odds on the other guy while giving away very little yourself.

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Hey wayfare:

If you didn't pair your sidecard, would you still have called the river?

I assume you were folding to any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] though?

[MathProf]

Congrats on the win and on finding such a fishy opponent willing to pee away his entire stack on low pair

I still have trouble with this move being +EV in general. Unless you have a read, a check raise on the turn IMO is more often a sign of strength than a flat out bluff. Am I wrong here? I've slown down in these situations (usually with TPTK) because far too often the villian shows me a set (at least) and takes my stack.

[DireWolf]

Just wondering,
I know villain had A-2 here, but does anyone see him playing AA this way as well. The min-raise preflop is fishy, but a good amount of people min raise preflop with AA.
Post-flop could also be how aces would play?

[Yeknom58]

I think check the turn or bet more.

So to recap the action...He raised preflop, check called the flop, then CR the turn, and all you have is TP with a Ten as a kicker. He's either very very bad or had a good hand that beats yours...so what do you think he is?

River is pretty standard but I hope you don't plan on calling that river without the top 2.

[Wayfare]

Well he called a min-raise, but he did not min raise himself

[Wayfare]

I agree checking the turn is a good line. However, I put him on a flush draw, and didn't want to give a free one. I honestly expected a fold on the turn.

As I said, $16 into a $71 pot. I have two outs to the virtual nuts and three outs to beating a better K. There was huge reverse bluff equity, as seen here.

I don't know what I would have done if I had not improved...