Negreanu on Hellmuth

[unfrgvn]

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link?

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www.fullcontactpoker.com

Then look for the poker forum under poker profiles

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From the above link, from the Gus Hanson profile:
"Strengths: Math skills. That may sound strange to most but everything Gus does is rooted in mathematics. Gus is arguably the best backgammon player in the world and has transferred those skills to the poker table. His approach to the game is closer to mathematically optimal than the approach of say, a David Sklansky type. "

Anyone agree with this? I'm not saying that Gus doesn't know the math, but to say that his game is more mathematically optimal than Davids seems too strong to me.

[Bill Poker]

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I think a 1 by daniel is kinda dumb...ive seen phil play in the 100/200 on PS, and he isnt a total fish,

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when these guys talk about the cash games, they are talking about the 4000/8000 cash games, in which Barry G, DN, Gau and some others prevail.

[AceFace]

I read his comment as a potshot at David Sklansky.

Unwarranted, too.

[SpeakEasy]

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From the above link, from the Gus Hanson profile:
"Strengths: Math skills. That may sound strange to most but everything Gus does is rooted in mathematics. Gus is arguably the best backgammon player in the world and has transferred those skills to the poker table. His approach to the game is closer to mathematically optimal than the approach of say, a David Sklansky type. "

Anyone agree with this? I'm not saying that Gus doesn't know the math, but to say that his game is more mathematically optimal than Davids seems too strong to me.

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From what I've seen and read, I'm starting to believe that Gus not only is able to fully calculate pot odds, pot equity, and all of the other equations that we talk about on the other 2+2 forums (MTT, NL cash games), but he is also able to factor in the relative value of tournament chips in play, both in the pot and in the opposing players' stacks who are in a given hand.

Say Gus is heads up, betting on the turn. I believe he is calculating pot odds, various equities (pot equity, folding equity of his bet, etc.), and also factors in the additional heightened or lessened value of his opponents chips in terms of tournament value. Sklansky's tournament book discusses the relative value of tournament chips, with the easiest example being a player on the bubble ($15,000 lowest payout) with one $500 tournament chip. That $500 tournament chip is worth $15,000 if the player survives and cashes.

This concept gets much more complicated with various sized stacks at various stages of the tournament, but I get the sense that Gus can factor this into his bets. I haven't read anything on 2+2 about factoring this into the normal course of calculating the odds of a bet during a typical hand. This may be the wrong forum to raise this issue, but any links to threads on this concept?

[four eight suited]

I dont believe these are necessarily all of the math skills daniel is talking about. I believe gus, like paul phillips, has a very good game theory side to his play, which is indeed math based. Things like calculating the range of hands an opponent has and probablities of the success of your bets versus these various ranges of hands. Then, using this to take a weighted average to evaluate the different plays. If gus's "math skills" were merely calculating pot odds and various equities, I think me might have about 100+ gus hanson's in this forum alone

[drewjustdrew]

I would guess that Sklansky is better at calculating odds for all the factors you mention, but Gus is better at estimating the actions of his opponent based on the play of hands and likely holdings. He will know better when his opponent will fold to aggression or not, etc.

[youngin20]

I think Daniel didnt have a system for how to calculate each statistic. I assume by giving hellmuth 1s, he meant to say he lacs emotional control, and is not a great cash game player. but giving him a 1 means that he plays completely suboptimally. Likewise giving Phil Ivey a ten, says he plays completely optimally. This is not a good way to judge people's poker ability. This is why barry rocks.

[deacsoft]

I'd like to make a couple clarifications here.

1) Mr. Negreanu means means: Ring = 9-7 players, Shorthanded = 6-4 players, Cash games = non-tournament play

2) When Mr. Negreanu says that Mr. Hansen is making plays based off of math skills he is primarily speaking of pot odds. Meaning if Mr. Hansen raises with K-8s and is re-raised all-in by a player he believes to have Q-Q, J-J, T-T, or 9-9 he knows he's most likely beat but considers the pot odds before making his next play. Mr. Hansen knows that he may very well be a 2.5 to 1 (approx) underdog to win the hand, but if he's been given the pot odds to make that call he just might do so.