Largest stack in Final Table....Need Help

[Bernas]

I'm not sure I agree with Woodguy here. I don't like the call very much at all. I would fold. Especially as the Big Stack.

The reason I like folding instead of calling is simply for the advertising factor. You are letting people know that you won't play garbage even when you are getting the odds to call.

Several things happen because of this. You lull them into a false sense of security thinking that they can raise you with any 2 and be ok. When you come back over the top next time, they are guaranteed to fold unless they have premium cards.

2nd, your steal attempts command much more respect.

3rd, you can now reraise a stealer with any 2 even when you aren't in the Blinds and he is going to give you credit for a premium hand.

This is a huge stack builder and it only cost you your BB.

[Bernas]

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Even considering that (a) I am already in for 8,000 and this will not really hurt my stack + I am showing that my BB will not be pushed around

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As a Big Stack I would want people to think my BB can be pushed around. Now they are going to start raising with less. Then you come over the top with anything. They have to give you credit for having a premium hand because you folded the other one. You see?

[Chuckster]

I tend to disagree somewhat as far as raising the minimum is wanting a call (referring to Final table play here). The blinds in many of the online final tables are such a big %age of one's stack, that a larger raise (say 3 or 4 BB's) is almost pot commiting you, if you get played back at and have a small/medium stack.

I simply HATE (and don't do it) raising the minimum in any other stage of an MTT, except when the blinds are so high in relation to stacks.

That being said, I should have realized that the VILLIAN knew that I was the big stack and that I was already in for the BB and would likely call with any 2 bc of pot odds.

Well here is how I played it out (I misplayed it in every single facet of the hand)

1. I checked the flop (Being that I called his raise, which I now see I should have just folded....I should have bet out the flop, say for 2 BB's or so...that way I can see where I am at...if he plays back I fold...if he calls...I likely give it up)

2. He bet the flop pretty strongly. Me, not thinking rationally, check raised all-in. (What a blunder! The guy is commited and I have garbage...at the time I was thinking he had 2 over's and was making a continuation bet, so I actually had a gut feeling that my measly pair of 3's was good)

Needless to say he had A-9 and doubled up on me.

Big dent to my stack....and the meltdown continued as the very next hand I pushed on the SB (folded to me) with K-9. The BB called with A-8....I hit and 9 on the flop and he caught an Ace on the river)

In 2 hands....from a pretty comfortable chip lead to out in 7th...OUCH

Moral of the story= I should have continued to play my game and play solid....using my large stack at the right moments in the right situation.

[Chuckster]

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Even considering that (a) I am already in for 8,000 and this will not really hurt my stack + I am showing that my BB will not be pushed around

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As a Big Stack I would want people to think my BB can be pushed around. Now they are going to start raising with less. Then you come over the top with anything. They have to give you credit for having a premium hand because you folded the other one. You see?

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Definitly see. I should be worrying about getting pushed around if I am the small or medium stack. As the big stack, I could have used this to my advantage later on.

Thanks man!

[Bernas]

It's excellent that you realize it. A lot of players know how to build a Big Stack, but very few know how to play with one.

[AceFace]

"I will take the flop (hey, you're getting 3.5-1) trying to hit a monster so I can stack them."

You're getting 3.5-1 to see only 3 cards, not all 5, and your chances of hitting a monster are really not that great, so the implied odds are worse than you think, IMO.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bernas]

You are right. But that is not the entire picture. You also have to factor in the odds that your opponent is going to miss the flop and a bet will take it down on the flop.

I agree that a fold is in order here but for different reasons that I have stated.

[AceFace]

"You also have to factor in the odds that your opponent is going to miss the flop and a bet will take it down on the flop. "

I think woodguy is making a similar (good) point. Thanks for the reply.

[woodguy]

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I'm not sure I agree with Woodguy here. I don't like the call very much at all.


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I do have a bad habit of being wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I wasn't clear with my intentions in my first post, and I tried to clear it up in the second.

I depends on how active I have been, but one move I like (especially when I outstack the opponent) is to call a min-raise with any two and fire a 1/2 pot bet on any flop.

If he was min-raising a monster you'll know right away as he's getting his chips in the middle.

If he was fishing with overcards or a small/medium pair there is a good chance he folds.

I like using this play in this particular instance because Hero has 27BB's and Villian has 13. Your flop bet makes him play for all his chips, so he has to really like his hand to play.

I also catergorized the MR as a big pair, but it doesn't have to be. I have enough chips here to find out on the flop, and I may add 3.5BB's to my stack in the process.

Hmmmm. Just ran the numbers and it has to work 33% of the time to be +EV.

I think I still like this line because if you re-raise PF (not all-in) to find out where you are at is needs to be at least 4BB's.

With the take-the-flop and lead out line, it will cost you only 2.5BB-3BB's and there is a better chance he likes his hand less on the flop than PF.

edit: Also, if you do happen to flop a moster with a rag hand and he has a real one, you're taking his stack, but yes in this case there are really not the odds to call PF in hopes of catching cards only.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Bernas]

I agree with you, and I supported your post up a little higher in the thread. I like the play, and is one that I utilize a lot. I just don't think it is the right play at the Final Table.

Read my ealrier posts in this thread and you will see why I like folding this at the Final Table.

If there were 30-40 people left and people were still changing tables, then this play makes perfect sense and works great.

If we were at the final table and you made this move on me, I would fold and then look to set a trap for you.