Flopping 2nd Pair

AngelicPenguin · #1 07-17-2005, 02:23 PM

I find myself hitting a weak 2nd pair hand out of the blinds a lot and I'm not sure what the best play is. Clearly, there are a ton of factors that go into a default play, so I posted a few of the hands I found below. I hate to post so many, but I figured most of these decisions should be automatic. I didn't post any reads, b/c I was more concerned with a good default play.

Here's my thinking:
Flop a decent middle pair in a large pot try to check/raise a late position bet. With a mediocre pair, just check/call if possible hoping to improve on the turn.
Flop a decent middle pair in a small pot, just bet out and reevaluate on the turn (lots of callers, tend to check, one loose caller tend to bet, etc.) Flop a mediocre middle pair in a small pot, just check/fold.
Heads up, I'm not so sure. Seems like the safer approach is just to follow the small pot idea.

Well, here's some hands. (:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

1)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 raises, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

With two back door draws, a (weak) overcard, and a pair, I definately want to continue. This should have been check/raise a late position better (probably pre flop raiser)?

2)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

With no preflop strength, should I bet? I think here I don't have equity to bet, but I have odds to call, so that's what I did. Plus I'm out of position. Standard?

3)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
7 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Is this an autobet HU? My hand is terribly weak to call down, so I check/call planning to check/fold the turn UI. I'm generally lost in these situations. I hate to keep firing at a small pot with hands like these, but I think I'm ahead plenty here.

4)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Standard? Getting 6 to 1 and possibly having the best hand is this an easy raise? Do you continue to fire at the pot, or bet the turn, check the river?

5)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Standard? I plan to check/fold the turn UI after that aggression.

6)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

5 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Ugh...not sure here. He raised preflop, so is this better to check/call, fold turn UI? Pot's not big, so I'm thinking firing here was a mistake, but I'm not so sure about HU.

7)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

9s is pretty good, so I plan to check/raise a late position bet. Since it comes from my left, I just call. 6 to 1 is enough to peel one off here right?

Congrats if you read all this!

MrWookie47 · #2 07-17-2005, 02:35 PM

That's a lot of hands.

Hand 1: Check/raise the PFR, or at least check the action.

Hand 2: Looks good.

Hand 3: Bet out. He's only 1/3 to have a pair.

Hand 4: Looks OK, and it worked, too. Bet the turn, check behind on the river UI.

Hand 5: Check pot size before you fold the turn. You may have odds to draw to a 5 outer.

Hand 6: Consider making it 3 bets preflop if you think the button will loosen up to try to steal (or is very loose in his PFR standards to begin with. Betting out the flop is debatable, but not bad. If button started with two high cards and you're ahead, he'll have anywhere from 3 to 6 outs, maybe an extra 1.5 if he has a heart. If you're behind, you're drawing to likely 5 outs, maybe 2 (vs AK) or 0 (KK). Any read on how this guy plays UI high cards?

7. Looks good.

cold_cash · #3 07-17-2005, 02:40 PM

Hand 1 I would probably try to checkraise the Button.

If someone else bets I would call.

Hand 2 I would fold pre-flop. The problem w/ hands like 89 is that you're going to flop middle/bottom pair or a weak draw lots of the time; hands that are often tough to play, especially against a big field.

I would bet hand 3. By checking you just invite him to move you off the best hand. If you bet and he raises that's a different story. If you check he's going to bet lots of hands, many of which you're ahead of.

Hand 4 I fold pre-flop for the same reasons I fold Hand 2.

Hand 5 is tough. I don't hate how you played it, depending on what you know about the CO.

Hand 6 -- Checkraise if he's a stealer. Betting the flop won't make him fold. If he 3-bets or pours it on later you can abandon ship.

Hand 7 -- You need to tighten up out of the small blind.

silkyslim · #4 07-17-2005, 02:42 PM

1) This is a perfect opportunity to c/r flop with pf raiser to your left. The pot is big and you have enough outs, and may be best ATM. You want to narrow down the field with this play.

2) I don't like completing with offsuit connectors, but the flop looks good. The board is coordinated, so you aren't likely to get many to fold if you lead out, and raising does nothing. so check/call with odds.

3)I am horrible heads up, but against an open button limper (!) I would bet out this pair.

4)I dislike this complete less than 98o. I don't know. Your outs to 2 pair are tainted as it makes someone a straight, I would consider this drawing to a 9 or backdoor straight. Honestly, I would fold only getting 6-1. If thats wrong plz yell at me because I fold too much.

5)This seems fine with the BD 2nd nutter, and the pair. 3-bet is bad and here is where a read would be important.

6)again HU, but I have heard that you should either 3-bet or fold pf. The hand would be different then.

MrWookie47 · #5 07-17-2005, 02:45 PM

You're right. I didn't check the preflop action to see that a lot of these were in the SB. I don't mind the T9o quite so much, but it's not too great, either. 97o should definitely be folded. It's definitely worth thinking about tightening up from the SB.

AngelicPenguin · #6 07-17-2005, 03:05 PM

Point taken. I remember reading (thought on this board somewhere) that one gappers and two gappers could be played from the SB (as well as anything suited, and obviously anything you would have limped in late position with.) I felt like I was playing too tight from the SB, so I tried loosening up a bit.

TomBrooks · #7 07-17-2005, 08:23 PM

1 is playable.

2 is not playable.

3 is playable HU.

thats as far as I got.

deception5 · #8 07-18-2005, 11:37 AM

Haven't seen the other posts, here's my thoughts.

Hand 1 - Yes, this is a good check/raise opportunity.
Hand 2 - I like the way you played it. With 4 opponents I'd rather see what the opponents are going to do and react than bet out with second pair and get 3-4 callers.
Hand 3 - I lead the flop, but this one is a little more read-oriented. I will probably bet the turn as well, but fold to aggression.
Hand 4 - Interestingly since the CO did not raise preflop and is not the last player to act I would put him on a stronger hand than a preflop raiser. I would consider folding here but if you're going to continue play it like this and lead the turn (probably check/calling the river if it's heads up).
Hand 5 - Looks good - before the reraise there are more draws he could be betting here than hand 4.
Hand 6 - Consider reraising preflop. When you lead the flop the button will be more likely to fold. Since you didn't reraise preflop your flop play is fine. Him calling doesn't mean anything as even a hand like A9 is going to call here. Hope for an A [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Lead the turn.
Hand 7 - It's close. Probably with implied odds you can make this call (particularly since you can likely check/raise the field if a 9 or 7 hits).