Can I possibly be ahead here?

RevAgain · #1 06-29-2005, 09:49 AM

Haven't really been paying attention to the table, just letting some raked hands rack up for the 15x play through so no read but I would have noticed if he had been overly aggressive or fishy.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (14.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

I think there's a strong case for dropping this on the turn. I have capped preflop so he has to put me on AK, QQ, KK or AA. He is raising with two people left to act too. I think the best I can hope for is splitting the pot with another AK, surely?

I used to be willing to let hands like this go but after making a few crying calls because the pot was laying me such great odds and finding my opponent was betting all the way with middle pair or some trash I don't seem to be able to anymore and I think it's developed into a leak, or am I right to call this down?

davelin · #2 06-29-2005, 09:53 AM

That would be a tough laydown, I'd probably call it down too. I think not popping the river showed good restraint as well.

car ramrod · #3 06-29-2005, 09:57 AM

Assuming his 3 bet hands pf are AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT, I doubt he 3 bets AQs. I could see him having trips here. The turn sucks but I think its a call.
And when the A falls on the river I have to look him up, and take on a note on him.
With out a read this is tough to lay down.

RevAgain · #4 06-29-2005, 10:11 AM

Well I'm still not sure, he showed queens for a set on the turn. Maybe I would play it the same way again next time, it's probably such a close decision it's not worth worrying that much over. What about this a few hands later, different opponent:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

I really don't want to pay another two bets, he's shown a huge amount of strength, especially flat calling preflop allowing the blinds in. Any disagreement? I suspect he's got a set of aces, although of course I'll never know.

Rev. Good Will · #5 06-29-2005, 10:17 AM

you think button wouldn't 3-bet AA PF?

RevAgain · #6 06-29-2005, 10:28 AM

He might, and I would, but I think cold calling with any hand in that situation is a bad play but given the post flop action I think aces are the most likely hand he made that play with.

It's more of a mistake to flat call with AK or KK there than aces, two hands also quite possible given the action postflop. The only hand I MIGHT cold call with there is AQ, which would beat me anyway.

I'm concerned that folding isn't weak tight, not how I was beaten if I was though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Fantam · #7 06-29-2005, 10:59 AM

In a similar situation you could try calling the flop raise and then check/calling UI to SD.

That would not be too expensive and help you to get a read on your opponent.

AlmightyJay · #8 06-29-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm still not sure, he showed queens for a set on the turn. Maybe I would play it the same way again next time, it's probably such a close decision it's not worth worrying that much over. What about this a few hands later, different opponent:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

I really don't want to pay another two bets, he's shown a huge amount of strength, especially flat calling preflop allowing the blinds in. Any disagreement? I suspect he's got a set of aces, although of course I'll never know.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really bad fold, and the fact that you just instantly assume he has the nuts makes me feel you're way too weak-tight. An unknown could have a lot of different hands here. Two pair is a strong possibility, and you have odds to continue against two pair. Maybe he flopped a flush draw, I've seen lots of bad players play one like this. Maybe he's just a donk who decided to raise for no apparent reason. Getting 11:1, I think this is a terrible fold (without reads). Not to mention betting and then folding to a single raise on the same street is usually a really bad idea.

You can't live your life in fear of the nuts.

McGahee · #9 06-29-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe he flopped a flush draw, I've seen lots of bad players play one like this. Maybe he's just a donk who decided to raise for no apparent reason. Getting 11:1, I think this is a terrible fold (without reads). Not to mention betting and then folding to a single raise on the same street is usually a really bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Come on - he's raising a PFR'er after a flop 3-bet and turn lead. He doesn't have a flush draw.
In the heat of battle I might call this as well, but I don't know how often people at 2/4 coldcall with A6 - which is about the worst hand he could have that you could hope for. This is not a bad fold by any means without a read; and saying that the bet/fold line sucks in general is pretty gay.

Buckyinsc · #10 06-29-2005, 12:37 PM

I'm a new player, only been playing for 3-4 months. I'm beating the .5/1 party game but having some struggles at the 1/2. This is a betting sequence that confuses me.

Hero 3-bets Button on the flop and the Button does not cap, but only calls the reraise. Then the 7h comes on the turn and Button raises. What happend that makes Button raise on the turn after calling on the flop? I never know if they just two paired or they had the set and waited for the larger bet on the turn to raise. This is always a difficult read for me. Any help?