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  #1  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:34 PM
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Default When to Complete SB w/Garbage

How many limpers does it take to make completing the SB with a poor hand +EV?

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers. I folded (was playing a tricky hand for big pot at another table). BB completed. 7 players to the Flop.

Flop would have given me top two pair, also putting a 2-flush on board. The 2 paired on the Turn and also made a 3-flush. There was tons of action and pot ended up being ~14BBs. Of course, the probability of the hand playing out like this is minimal.

So generally speaking, what is the # of limpers that give you enough odds (pot & implied) to complete with a weak hand? What are some table considerations that would alter that #? (eg BB is super aggressive & most likely will raise PF facing limpers.)

SP
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2005, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

[ QUOTE ]

I had Q2o in SB with 6 limpers.

Flop would have given me top two pair

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you get top 2-pair with Q2o?
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
UATrewqaz UATrewqaz is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

At a table of weak players when 5+ people have limped I'll complete in the SB with any two cards.
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  #4  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:04 PM
Kurn, son of Mogh Kurn, son of Mogh is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

Depends on the blind structure. In a 2/3 blind structure it is almost never correct to fold in an unraised pot.
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

Qx-1.5x-1.4x

hahahaha
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:11 PM
winky51 winky51 is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

Total trash like 72o, Q2o, J3o are 1:28 chance to hit a solid hands like 2 pair or better. So bascially the only time you play those is when the SB is 2/3. With 5 callers and the BB you are getting 21:1 on your hand right there. If you flop 2 pair or better can easily make the remaining bets later on down easily. With that many players someone hit.

Now for 1/2 the blind you still need a ton of limpers. Now you can call with a hand like 87o, J5s, Q3s. But you have to play it very carefully and have a table full of loose calling stations to the river to compensate for the times you get beat. With a hand like J5s you have about a 1:5.5 shot at making something decent 15.29%. Flush draw, flush, or 2 pair or better.

1/3 blind I treat pretty much like no blind. But I still count the odds there.
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:18 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

When there are more limpers, trash hands become worse, and it is more clear to fold them for 1/2 of a small bet.

Against one limper, there is a decent chance your hand is good if you even flop a pair. Against many limpers, you can't profitably continue with just a low pair.

If you were getting really good pot odds against one player, you could play any two cards. If you get really good pot odds because you have to come up with the best hand out of 10, you still need to fold Q2o.
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2005, 04:54 PM
UATrewqaz UATrewqaz is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

Well my general goal when I play trash out of hte SB vs. a large field is "Flop big or go home", I don't really see the flop hoping to catch a part of it.

If you play like a 75s and flop a pair of 7's you are out of position against a large field with a very marginal holding (reverse implied odds).

So the point about a trash hand like say a 92o being worse as more limpers comes in is true but to a point.

You're basically saying, heads up a 92o can win by say pairing up the 9, whereas against a large field a pair of 9's will rarely win, which is totally true.

And I'm saying, the goal of completing with the SB is not to try to win with a pair of 9's but rather to catch a flop like A22 and win a big pot.

The fundamental question of scenario 2 of course is that catching a fat flop is very rare and thus you must have the right odds (both immediate and implied) to play.

my first live B&M experience I have 63o in the SB, every person at the table except one limps, so I complete, feeling I have the implied odds due to the fact these people will pay off a big hand the whole way.

Flop is X63 rainbow, for example.
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2005, 05:09 PM
Browny Browny is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

What about the situation where it is folded around to you in the small blind, do you call with any two against the BB. Raise with say 89s. And if you call with any two, what then do you do if it gets raised behind.
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2005, 05:33 PM
velvetdog velvetdog is offline
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Default Re: When to Complete SB w/Garbage

With 5 or more limpers and a passive player in the BB I like the odds for playing many junk hands in loose/passive games when the SB is 1/2, and will play practically any hand when it is 2/3. Getting >12:1 on my bet is attractive if I think my postflop play is superior to most or all competitors. Against even a few solid postflop players I stick close to the SSHE hand guidelines.

With weak speculative hands you can score some big pots when you hit the flop big on a relatively safe looking board.

I also really like playing any hand when folded to the SB. There was a great article in last month's 2+2 newsletter about this and it has added greatly to my win rate in short handed games.
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