Why do we fold QTo from UTG?

[pokerjunky]

According to Pokerstove hands like QTo and T9s have an equity edge against 9 other random hands. So what's the reasoning behind folding these from UTG?

wow.

[Jimbo]

Because you will be playing a weak hand out of position. Anyone else who willingly enters the pot is either brain dead or has a much better hand than you. Besides, do you really want to call a preflop raise with that hand and be out of position the rest of the hand too?

Because it only takes one hand to beat you. Second place doesn't get you anything... except for more losses. So who cares how good a particular hand is against random hands, it's more important to know how likely a hand is to win.

[winky51]

QTo: Its a terrible hand in EP

a. if someone raises behind your hand is definitly dominated and you are out of position.
b. there is a HIGH chance someone will raise behind you.
c. if no one does your limp encourages others to limp. QTo does not play well in multi-player pots, and your out of position.

So in either case, a raiser, or a lot of callers... your screwed and have a small chance to win the pot.

T9s: Can only be played early in very loose games 5+ to the flop every time with very little preflop raising. And if there is everyone calls anyways. If you are playing a normal game like 2/4+ at party it has the same problems at QTo except it plays better vs the raising hands, but only marginally. Now if you limp and a lot of people do then its ok except for the fact you are out of position.

Now take the reverse where you are on the button and 5+ callers are in then raising with T9s becomes correct. Even if you are 2nd best hand because your hand plays so well in multi pots and you have position you can control the pot and now will have odds to call for marginal draws.

In fact there is an article out there that states with a hand like that JTs, QJs, and other hands that play well multiway (5+ callers) that even if someone raises behind you should ram and jam the pot. As long as all the previous callers still call the raises. Even if the opponent who raised has AA your hand T9s has more equity than the average loose caller and thus you are building a pot for yourself and the AA player. But to do this you have to be in a looooose game with suckers, 5+ to the flop.

[ohnonotthat]

Of even more importance than having 5+ to the flop is having one or two "Curious Georges" who will march dutifully to the river.

The utter irony here is that A-A, when in the hands of a weak player, often becomes one of the "Curious Georges"; it can easily turn into a payoff-hand whereas your T-9/s almost never will.

No, I'm not saying A-A is the second best of these two hands, only that A-A often winds up as the second best hand overall in large, multi-way pots - and second best with A-A is apt to cost dearly. This fate almost never awaits T-9/s and the like. If you (and 5+ opponents) pay 2 or more bets pre-flop to see the flop you are very often committed to go to the end if you flop any sort of hand or draw, however you are [usually] correct in calling all raises (or even being the raisor). A-A often finds itself wishing the betting would end even when it knows it's [currently] ahead as these hands are very similar to Omaha pots - you know you're ahead but cannot think of more than 2 or 3 cards that will leave you there.

"Dammit deputy, send those girls home - and learn to listen more carefully; I said I need to get me a 'POSSE' - 'POSSE', dammit. What did you THINK I said" ?

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
According to Pokerstove hands like QTo and T9s have an equity edge against 9 other random hands. So what's the reasoning behind folding these from UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says to fold them? If it's Sklansky and Malmuth then one would think that there must be a logical reason. As it turns out there might be a good reason for not playing these hands from UTG. Sklansky and Malmuth classify UTG and the next two players to act as Early position. The key here is the word position. Hands like these have an equity edge against 9 unknown hands if all of the cards are dealt out and no further betting is allowed so in NLH an arguement can be made for playing these hands depending on stack size and blind ratio. But in most live poker, not tournaments, hands are not played this way.

"Play" is another key word in determining the value of a hand. How well does a hand play against x opponents is a prime consideration when deciding if one should play the hand.

I hope we can agree that in limit poker when you raise or call with a hand like Q,T or any hand for that matter from an early position your raise or call must produce a positive EV for it to be correct. What happens whenever you enter a pot you affect the dynamics of the situation. Some considerations when making a decision to play are what type of players are left to act and how well each of them play. If you are known by good players to play hands like Q,T from early it will certainly affect what hands they play against you. We could go on about the dynamics of a hand and the factors that govern what constitutes a +EV play but it would be a long drawn out explanation. Suffice it to say that determining the EV of a poker hand is situational dependent. When someone tells you that Q,T is not profitible when played early they are using their experience coupled with some hand analysis to make a general statement that in typical games this hand does not play well enough from early position to produce a profit.

Vince

[sweetjazz]

n/m

[NMcNasty]

Its profitable against 9 random hands, but in real games you aren't up against 9 random hands you're up against 1 or 2 good hands, maybe 1 or 2 marginal hands, and 1 or 2 bad ones on average. In that case its clearly not profitable UTG but *might* be slightly profitble in late position. However, if you could somehow know that you were getting all 9 players behind you to see the flop, then playing QTo from UTG would in fact be correct. I don't advocate folding it there at some play money tables [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Random hands include good and bad hands. You don't play Q 10 UTG because you have 9 hands in front of you that might raise and, on top of that, you will be OOP for the entire hand.